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 A Wych wishlist

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Wed Aug 05 2015, 01:07

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
When going to ground you don't become I1, the rule states:

Quote :
If assaulted, the unit will fight as usual, but because they are not set to receive the charge, enemy units do not receive the Initiative penalty for assaulting a unit in difficult terrain, even if the unit is in difficult terrain.

Now I know. And knowing is half the battle.

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Wed Aug 05 2015, 06:13

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
When going to ground you don't become I1, the rule states:

Quote :
If assaulted, the unit will fight as usual, but because they are not set to receive the charge, enemy units do not receive the Initiative penalty for assaulting a unit in difficult terrain, even if the unit is in difficult terrain.

Which means that pinning an enemy unit is a handy substitute for assault grenades, and prevents overwatch as well.

Just as well we don't have any weapons in our Codex that cause pinning. Fixing two critical weaknesses for a large number of our units at the same time is exactly the kind of resourcefulness that a bunch of xenos cheaters like Dark Eldar shouldn't have native access to. jocolor
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Wed Aug 05 2015, 12:21

To be fair, the moment that GW realized we could get bulk pinning from allying CE they lost all their pinning as well.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Wed Aug 05 2015, 12:38

@FuelDrop wrote:
To be fair, the moment that GW realized we could get bulk pinning from allying CE they lost all their pinning as well.

And gained immunity to overwatch for their Banshees/any unit with an Autarch.

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Wed Aug 05 2015, 12:53

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
To be fair, the moment that GW realized we could get bulk pinning from allying CE they lost all their pinning as well.

And gained immunity to overwatch for their Banshees/any unit with an Autarch.

Well we couldn't very well have Craftworlders be vulnerable to overwatch could we? That'd be crazy talk!

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Wed Aug 05 2015, 13:02

I'd love to see us gain a decent selection of pinning weapons and more tools to play around with people's leadership. Combined with some changes to soulfright weaponry and our relics I think we could become THE army for 'Freakshow'-style tactics.

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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Wed Aug 05 2015, 17:13

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'd love to see us gain a decent selection of pinning weapons and more tools to play around with people's leadership. Combined with some changes to soulfright weaponry and our relics I think we could become THE army for 'Freakshow'-style tactics.

Soulfright needs to affect ATSKNF. I don't buy that space marines are immune to the galaxies most skilled mindfeckers. They can concoct horrible toxins that dissolve a marine into sludge, when they're normally immune to toxins and poisons. Why can't they develop psychogenics that can mess with their heads? Makes no sense. And Space Marines are pretty damned worried about chaos taints, don't tell me that isn't  based in fear! Fearless or mindless should be the only defence.

And yes pinning weapons are essential. Are DE the only army without pinning? Pretty lame given that the army on paper is a CC army. But without assault grenades or pinning in quantities anywhere near high enough in practice they're a shooty army with useless units.

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Thu Aug 06 2015, 00:29

No Pinning, No Blinding... Apart from poison (which isn't really all that good except against MCs) and Lance (which is only really good against AV 14) the dark eldar have virtually no tricks up their sleeves. We get one concussive weapon (so that our high initiative is even higher. yay.)

We also get 1 sniper rifle, which can only be taken by characters. And not on our 1 stealth infantry choice. Of course, now that sniper rifles don't cause pinning it's massively overpriced considering that all our guys wound on 4+ against everything anyway...

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Thu Aug 06 2015, 00:56

Can somebody help me with the changes to the wych special weapons. I haven't been playing dark eldar very long. As I understand it in the previous codex razorflails were two close combat weapons and you got rerolls of to hit and to miss now with the specialist weapon rule does that mean I don't get an extra dice and I can only re-roll to hit? and with hydra gauntlets you used to get D6 bonus attack +1 dice because they counted as two weapons. Now they only get re-rolls of to wound and again have the specialist weapon rule.

How do you tip the odds in your favour because those changes really suck and I'm not seeing the sense in taking the best weapons and making them lousy. Am I missing a trick? Is it simply my inexperience?

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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Thu Aug 06 2015, 08:58

The new Wych weapons give you the extra attack for two weapons but you don't take anything but Hydra Gauntlets. Those things are just statistically stronger than the other two options, by a fair margin. The other two options are mathematically pointless in the codex. Though Wyches themselves are effectively pointless also.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Thu Aug 06 2015, 09:41

@Demantiae wrote:
The new Wych weapons give you the extra attack for two weapons but you don't take anything but Hydra Gauntlets. Those things are just statistically stronger than the other two options, by a fair margin. The other two options are mathematically pointless in the codex. Though Wyches themselves are effectively pointless also.

A pointless option on a pointless unit. A new low for GW?

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Thu Aug 06 2015, 09:43

@Count Adhemar wrote:

A pointless option on a pointless unit. A new low for GW?

I think you're thinking of wych weapons on BLOODBRIDES. Drops it to a new low, don't it?

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Thu Aug 06 2015, 09:47

@FuelDrop wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

A pointless option on a pointless unit. A new low for GW?

I think you're thinking of wych weapons on BLOODBRIDES. Drops it to a new low, don't it?

I forgot about Bloodbrides. Can't think why...

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Thu Aug 06 2015, 10:01

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

A pointless option on a pointless unit. A new low for GW?

I think you're thinking of wych weapons on BLOODBRIDES. Drops it to a new low, don't it?

I forgot about Bloodbrides. Can't think why...

Your brain was trying to protect itself.

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Thu Aug 06 2015, 10:08

WTF are Blood Brides? Never seem those. Are they some kind of special unit? jocolor

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Thu Aug 06 2015, 10:17

@Demantiae wrote:
WTF are Blood Brides? Never seem those. Are they some kind of special unit? jocolor

Treasure your ignorance. Knowledge of these topics cost sanity.

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Aug 07 2015, 07:25

@Count Adhemar wrote:
A pointless option on a pointless unit. A new low for GW?

Ironically, if wyches were completely pointless, and were in fact 0 points, there might actually be some point in taking them! drunken
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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Aug 07 2015, 11:04

Lolz.
Perfect logic.

I want more pointless units in our next codex!
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Aug 07 2015, 11:31

So am I right in thinking there's no loophole or non-cheating way of cheating to get my wyches to be good again like they were in the last codex?

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Aug 07 2015, 11:46

@Nyx_Necrodragon wrote:
So am I right in thinking there's no loophole or non-cheating way of cheating to get my wyches to be good again like they were in the last codex?

Proxie them as Harlequins.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Aug 07 2015, 14:42

@Creeping Darkness wrote:

Ironically, if wyches were completely pointless, and were in fact 0 points, there might actually be some point in taking them! drunken

That point would still probably be "use them to get cheap ObjSec Venoms"
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Sat Aug 08 2015, 09:19

Are there any negatives to wychsuits just straight up providing ignores overwatch in the same manner as banshee masks? It would be stupid fluffy too.
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Sat Aug 08 2015, 09:54

It's been suggested in one of the many homebrew revisions that Wyches should get a 5++ to overwatch and bailing out of burning vehicles, 4++ in combat and 3++ in challenges. Then they might be worth taking as they'd stand some chance of making into combat with enough bodies to do something. I still think they're too expensive though unless you changed their weapons to be meaningful.

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Sat Aug 08 2015, 10:03

Right, that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that Succubi, Lelith, wyches, bloodbrides, and reavers should all straight up ignore overwatch like banshee mask units.

My suggestion is considerably better than what's been suggested before, so what I'm really asking 2 questions:

1. Would that be enough to warrant wyches price point?

2. Would it cause undue problems with any of those other units?

My gut says the answers to those 2 questions are yes and marginally respectively.
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Sat Aug 08 2015, 16:28

No and Yes. No because it changes the role of wyches too much. They are supposed to be a fragile/glass unit. Any changes should be done to their offensive abilities. I say a 6++ against overwatch, that's it. Reducing opponents WS once in close combat would be another solution. Yes, that's more of a defensive buff, but it plays to their close combat abilities. Wyches need to have a weakness, and that should be against shooting
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