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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: A Wych wishlist   Fri Jul 03 2015, 10:36

I've been toying with it for a while, so here's my wish for wyches. (for the sake of my sanity references to Wyches in the special rules will refer to Wyches, Bloodbrides, Squad Leaders and Succubi unless it clearly does not. Also, assume that if no change is specifically mentioned (like force organization slot, how squads work, ect.) assume that it's unchanged from how it currently is (EG: Succubus is still an independent character HQ, you can't mix and match wyches and bloodbrides in the same unit, ect.))

Name____WS__BS__S__T__W__I__A__LD__SV__Points
Wych_____5___3___3__3__1__6__1__8__6+____10
Hekatrix___6___4___3__3__2__7__2__9__6+____20
Bloodbride_6___4___3__3__2__7__2__9__6+____18
Syren_____7___5___3__3__2__8__3__10__6+___28
Succubus__8___6___3__3__3__8__4__10__6+___75

Special rules:

Combat drugs.
Fleet.
Power from pain.
Night Vision.

Dodge: Wyches have a 5++ save in the assault phase. This improves to 4++ during the fight subphase, or 3++ if the model is fighting in a challenge.

Gladiators: Wyches melee attacks benefit from the rending universal special rule.

Duelists: When not outnumbered or when fighting in a challenge, Wyches' melee attacks gain the Shred universal special rule.

Master of the Arena: at the start of each assault phase, the Succubus may choose one of the following special rules. She and any unit of Wyches or Bloodbrides she is with gain that special rule:
1)Preferred Enemy.
2)Rampage.
3)Hatred.
4)Precision strikes.
This lasts until the next assault phase.

Wargear: for every 3 models in a unit of Wyches, 1 may replace their close combat weapon and pistol with a set of Wych weapons for a cost of 5 points.
Any number of models in a unit of Bloodbrides may replace their close combat weapon and pistol with a set of wych weapons for 5 points per model. Any Bloodbride may instead replace their close combat weapon with a power weapon for 10 points, or an agonizer for 15 points.

One Wych per unit may be upgraded to a Hekatrix for 10 points. 1 Bloodbride per unit may be upgraded to a Syren for 10 points. They can  replace their close combat weapon with a power weapon for 10 points, or an agonizer for 15 points. They may take Haywire grenades for 5 points.

A succubus:
• May replace close combat weapon with an archite glaive…20 pts
• May replace splinter pistol with a blast pistol…15 pts
• May take haywire grenades…5 pts
• May take a webway portal…35 pts
• May take items from the Melee Weapons, Wych Cult Weapons and/or
Artefacts of Cruelty lists

Wych weapons:
Shardnet and impaler: A model with these weapons may reroll failed dodge saving throws made during the fight subphase. Their attacks are AP 5
Razorflails: A model with these weapons may reroll failed to hit rolls and their attacks rend on a roll of 5+. Their attacks are AP -
Hydra Gauntlets: A model with these weapons gains the rampage universal special rule. Their attacks are AP 5.

__________________________________________________________________________________

LELITH HESPERAX
QUEEN OF KNIVES

LORD OF WAR. 250 points.

WS__BS__S__T__W__I__A__LD__SV
_9___9___3__3__3___9__5__10__6+

• Fleet
• Independent Character
• Night Vision
• Power from Pain
• Rampage

Quicksilver Dodge: Lelith Hesperax has a 4+ invulnerable save. This is increased to
a 3+ invulnerable save against all Wounds inflicted in the Fight sub-phase, increasing to 2++ if she is in a challenge.

Weaponized hair: Lelith Hesperax's hair is filled with blades, hooks, and other lovely accessories. It counts as a Shardnet and Impailer (see above).

Perfect Blows: Lelith Hesperax's attacks rend on a to wound roll of 4+. Her attacks always have shred. Against vehicles, her attacks have armourbane.

A league apart: Lelith Hesperax's attacks hit on a roll one better than would normally be the case. For instance, if she were fighting a weapon skill 4 opponent she would be hitting on a roll of 2+, rather than 3+. Her opponents hit on a roll one worse than would normally be the case. For instance, if she were fighting a weapon skill 4 opponent they would be hitting on 6+ rather than 5+. Karn the betrayer hits on 3+ against Lelith Hesperax, and upon rolling a 2 is confused at the sensation of gorechild not making contact with anything.

In a single blow: In a challenge, Lelith Hesperax may forgo her normal attacks to end the fight in a single, perfectly aimed cut. Make a single attack against her opponent in the challenge. It is resolved at strength D.

Notes:
Yes, Lelith Hesperax does get a 2++ rerollable save in a challenge. What, you thought you actually stood a chance of landing a blow in a 1-on-1 duel against the greatest pre-fall gladiator? Who's only gotten better over the last 10-15 thousand years?

Thoughts?

Edit: also, give the archite glaive +2 strength, AP 2, 2-handed. Put it on par with the Executioner for Howling Banshees.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Jul 03 2015, 14:43

Couple notes:

My first thought was that the stat lines were insane. Then I read the point costs, and it mellowed my opinion somewhat.

The Hydra Guantlets above are a never-take. Since the Duelist rule makes it advantageous to always make them the numerically superior foe, the Hydra Gauntlets work at a cross-purpose to rules they already have, and aren't that great as they are. I'd honestly prefer AP 5 and their old rule from 5th ed.

I would be more comfortable (fluff wise) if Lelith's Perfect Blows ability only worked against Walkers, rather than all Vehicles. (She's a duelist, after all, not a mechanic.)

Her save: the rule lists it as a 2++ in a duel, but where does she get the ability to reroll it from?

In a Single Blow is egregious. I don't think you need it to justify her points, or to make her viable. As it is, it makes her OP.

All that aside, I'd play it. (It's going to make me man-weep the first time she takes a S6 shot and dies to Instant Death, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.)

I sincerely hope that this is what wyches become. (I dont have high hopes, but--happy thoughts!) Except Hydra Gauntlets. Lol, all my wyches are modeled with hydras and I'd hate to have to replace them all.

Damn fine rules write-up, though!
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Jul 03 2015, 14:49

Shard net and impailer give the reroll to L's save.

The point of "in a single blow" was for a cinematic, single-stroke-battle type thing. Was considering instant death as an alternative.

You're right about the hydra gauntlets, I'll need to think about them.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Jul 03 2015, 14:52

How about this for 'In a Single Blow:' a single attack that causes Instant Death, or against walkers causes d3 hull points on a glancing or penetrating hit (instead of 1).
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Jul 03 2015, 14:54

Sounds good. agree with armor bane as a walker only thing too. good thoughts

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Jul 03 2015, 23:42

Marines in 5th were 18 points (I think) when DE wyches were 10. Marines got a huge price cut and got better while wyches stayed the same and got worst. Wyches are pretty good, once they get FC on turn four. At ten points a model they are just too expensive to sit around doing nothing for 3 turns, and generally too fragile to survive that long anyway.
Cut their points drastically and give them good formations that either boost their PFP turn number or give them a better table.
7 or 6 points for each wych would work for me. Throw in free wych weapons and I'd take a few full squads, keep them in reserve for 3 turns then wrench face with them once they get pumped up.
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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Jul 17 2015, 13:25

While it's true that Wyches suck at their supposed role now and need a boost whenever I read how they should be boosted it always devolves into "lets make them OP, because reasons". Remember, Wyches are a TROOP choice, they're not meant to be super-hard murder units. They should be somewhat comparable to say Khorne Berserkers in what they do, but remember that those guys cost a lot more points. Take the fat armour and thick bones out of the equation and Wyches are way cheaper (and should be way cheaper) than those guys. So at best they should be comparable in their damage output.

What I think Wyches need is a simple buff to their Dodge rules. The OP had a decent suggestion - 5++ on the charge vs Overwatch, boosted to 3++ in a challenge. Instantly makes Wyches worth charging into combat because they might actually survive long enough to hit something. The bonus to challenge dodges gives them a decent chance to take on any opponent and survive.

The Wych weapons need looking at. The rules are crap. And one of them (I thin it's the Hydra gauntlet) is statistically superior to the others, to the point where there is zero reason to take 2 or the 3 weapons. Dunno how they should be buffed but they need to be. Also the dumb rule on only taking more than 1 if a squad is 10 women or more is stupid. Either it needs to be 1 weapon per 3 models or raiders need a capacity increase to 11 or 12 (and venoms to 6) to allow a 10 woman (or 5 woman) squad to be fielded with a character such a Succubus. It's plain stupid. Imperial vehicles long ago got a capacity upgrade to fit their characters in with their squads and was probably prior to the complete mechanization of 40k (I was out of the hobby during this period but when I used to play Rhino's had a capacity of 10). Just allowing 1 weapon per 3 models seems sensible enough (isn't that how they used to be?).

I don't advocate the boosting of the stats of Wyches, again they're troops, not can-opener elite murder squads. Their role is to tie up units in close combat and survive. Sure they can tear through weak squads but their battlefield role (with the dodge rule) is to be a tar pit that has teeth. They can murderize crappy squads of squishies or they can hold up termies forever. I do think the Bloodbrides need a boost though. As they are their just a slightly better version of your basic Wych. Statistically they do perform much better than Wyches (they're almost as good mathematically as Incubi in a general sense) but they need something to distinguish them from the rabble. Boosting them to WS5 is probably too much thoguh. At this point they have better stats than Incubi who are for all intents and purposes the ancient masters of melee warfare in Comorragh. If Bloodbrides could take (buffed) Wych weapons across the board, or if they had an extra rule like Shred or master crafted weapons (re-roll failed hit rolls) that would give them the boost they needed to fill the role of close combat specialists. You might then want to charge them at enemy close combat specialists because they might very well crush them.

Changes need to be simple and justified. Throwing increased stat lines around is a little ridiculous. Although I never played in those days I'm very glad Wyches lost the haywire grenades. It's seems pretty dumb that a bunch of gladiators were running around throwing bombs on tanks rather than engaging in the wholesale slaughter of enemy infantry. Shame they now suck balls but they might one day be buffed back to usefulness. They're some damn fine models and a decent kit, GW can't let them stay impotent forever.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Jul 17 2015, 13:56

@Demantiae wrote:
Sure they can tear through weak squads but their battlefield role (with the dodge rule) is to be a tar pit that has teeth. They can murderize crappy squads of squishies or they can hold up termies forever.

The problem of course is that they can't tear through weak squads! Charging Wyches vs Termagants kill less than one Termagant a piece! And cost twice as much...

I don't mind them being fragile if they actually have some sort of offense. As they currently hit about as hard as my 3-yr old son, they're not really doing their job.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Jul 17 2015, 16:49

A Wych Wishlist?

(Music)

Oh, I wish that wyches had grenades like they used to befooore
So that in combat with a vehicle they'd not be such a booore...
I wish at least they'd be less points, it seems like such a waaaste...
A wych costs no less than ten points when kabalites are just eeeight.

I wish they could surviiive... to overwaaatch...
I wish they'd help somehooow... to win the maaatch.
I wsh they could surviiive... being shot aaat...
And hit not quite like suuuch... a pussycaaat...

I wish they had some fun formations like everyone else doooes...
In codices that people play and where anything gooooes...
And maybe just one special rule to show a little loooviiing...
Like 'Once per game you won't be lame and actually do sooomethiiing...'

I wish their weapons diiid... what they should dooo
Instead of just re-roooll... a dice or twooo...
What are wyches fooor? I wish I kneeew...
I'd like them to explaaain... what they're suppooosed... to doooo..

I wish they had their old stuff back and maybe something be...tter...
Because when everything's Strenght 6 'Feel No Pain' doesn't maa...tter
I wish that people would look at them and say, 'Wyches are raaad!'
Instead of, 'Wow, you play Dark Eldar? Why, you must be maaad.'

I wish they coud surviiive... being shot aaat...
I wish they'd help somehooow... to win the maaatch.
What are wyches fooor? I wish I kneeew...
I'd like them to explaaain... what they're suppooosed... to dooo!

(Sung to 'The Sun Whose Rays Are All Ablaze from The Mikado)

Smile
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Jul 17 2015, 16:54

I actually managed to win a game with a wych cult recently. The opposition was CSM, and the opposing commander was a total rookie (hence I took the weakest list I could to give him a sporting chance).

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Jul 17 2015, 17:48

That was awesome Agatha! You are not only a cruel archon but also the mistress of music! But beware... She who thirsts is lurking... Waiting...

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Fri Jul 17 2015, 19:43

I think all wyches need is the acrobatic rule that banshees get...making them run and charge 3inches further...Wych weapons per 3 models...and a cool formation that grants the ability to embark and disembark on vehicles that have moved up to 12 or tank shocked. This will make them really fast. I imagine 6 units of venom wyches close enough to kiss the enemy turn 1 !
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Sat Jul 18 2015, 01:51

I figure that Wyches should be able to beat a group of space marine scouts on the charge.
After all, a group of specialists should be able to beat a group of generalists in the same section and points costs when in their specialty, right?

However, wyches are hitting on 4+ wounding on 5+ and the scouts are getting a 4+ save, vs the scouts hitting on 4+ wounding on 3+ with the wyches getting a 4+ save.
Even if the scouts are outfitted for range, I'd still say they're fairly evenly matched with the wyches in CC.
Sad

The +1 weapon skill will at least let them hit the scouts.

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Sun Aug 02 2015, 12:15

@Demantiae wrote:

Changes need to be simple and justified. Throwing increased stat lines around is a little ridiculous. Although I never played in those days I'm very glad Wyches lost the haywire grenades. It's seems pretty dumb that a bunch of gladiators were running around throwing bombs on tanks rather than engaging in the wholesale slaughter of enemy infantry. Shame they now suck balls but they might one day be buffed back to usefulness. They're some damn fine models and a decent kit, GW can't let them stay impotent forever.

I agree with all you said but most with this part, I hope you are right about GW not being completely incapable of writing game rules as they really dropped the ball on Wyches and Bloodbrides, there is no logic in the Wych Weapons and I don't see a reason to take Bloodbrides, unless you want to have a point sink unit that will die to any ranged fire pointed their way.

So no real stat changes, a squad sergeant should never have more wounds, extra WS I can get on top of the +1 A and +1 Ld.

Weapon options should be revised to be worth their points, or at least level all weapons so Hydra Gauntlets aren't a no-brainer.

I would really like to see a supplement for Wych Cult with an alternative PfP table, new decent CC wargear and Formations buffing the BloodBrides to Shred or Rending. I would say Rending as gladiators can find the weak spot in armour.
Another formations could improve the Dodge for all Wyches/BBs, just as you have suggested, as CC is their thing and Challenges are the epitome of melee.
Another formation should allow two Combat drugs rolls and pick or something like that.
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Sun Aug 02 2015, 12:58

@FuelDrop wrote:
I figure that Wyches should be able to beat a group of space marine scouts on the charge.
After all, a group of specialists should be able to beat a group of generalists in the same section and points costs when in their specialty, right?

However, wyches are hitting on 4+ wounding on 5+ and the scouts are getting a 4+ save, vs the scouts hitting on 4+ wounding on 3+ with the wyches getting a 4+ save.
Even if the scouts are outfitted for range, I'd still say they're fairly evenly matched with the wyches in CC.
Sad

The +1 weapon skill will at least let them hit the scouts.
You can't just compare units in a vacuum on stats. As Wyches are in a fast transport they should be able to get the charge in, shoot some pistols and throw a plasma grenade.

Let's assume that scouts are CC and have a Power Sword Sergeant.
Wyches have a Agoniser Hekatrix as that is the only weapon that poses any threat.

So let's do the math: (#attacks x 2hit x 2wound x save)
9 Splinter pistols, kills 1,5 Scouts. (9x 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/2)
1 plasma grenade hits 2,5 Scouts on average and kills 1,25. ( 1 x 5/2 x 1/2 x 1)

You charge and they overwatch with 7-8 scouts. Let's say 8.
They kill 0,89 wych (8 x 1/6 x 2/3 x 1) unless you charge through cover.

So on average on a successfully charge for 8-9", due to fleet.
9 Wyches strike at ini 6 and kill 2 scouts (8x3a x1/2 x1/3 x1/2) Heka kills 1 Scout (1x4a x 1/2 x1/2 x 1)

So at initiative 4 5 scouts hit back at the wyches killing 1,83 wyches (5x2a +1 x 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/2)

So after one game turn you have 7 wyches left and he has 5 scouts left and I rounded numbers in favor of the scouts. So as it is wyches can beat CC scouts, not by a lot but they do.

I also didn't take into account combat drugs, which will increase their combat effectiveness by 17% in 2/3rds of the time (only Ini and Ld boost have an indirect impact on CC)

I just did this math to make it clear that stat changes are quite dramatic and not really needed for this troop choice, just minor tweaks to make the unit workable again.

Dodge upgrade, as you suggested seems cool.
Wych Weapons can be taken per 3 models for Wyches and 0-4 for Bloodbrides (just like for Trueborn Warriors)
Boost Wych Weapons. I think RR to Dodge for Impaler & Shardnet is really hard, as it doubles the survivability of that model in CC. I would say the former rule or reducing attacks of models in B2B contact. Sure this is more complex but nicely unique.
Razorblades I would give Rending, which would insure 25% chance of a AP2 wound on the charge per model. Boosting to hit is pointless with an AP 5 weapon on S3.

Current stats Hydra Gauntlet boost wounds inflicted on T4 by 33%, Razorflails boost 25% vs T4 on the charge and impaler & shardnet only boost 5%.

I do like the fact that all Wych Weapons (WW) are AP 5 as this boost their killyness vs lowly opponents.

What I really would like is WW to be 3rd edition for Blood Brides, thus 1 point per model, half opposing WS to hit you and reduce 1 cc Attack. Wyches used to munch up MEQ, now Bloodbrides would do this Smile
The funny thing was that they weren't very killy but didn't take many wounds at all. So they could dance around their foes all day and slowly kill them by a thousands cuts AND the Agoniser. So the champion (serge) of the pack needed to do the heavy lifting.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Mon Aug 03 2015, 02:50

Some nice ideas in this thread (and an excellent song!), but I would go one step fuirther than El_Jairo and suggest we shouldn't write rules in a vacuum, either.

Power from Pain and any other army-wide rules are an obvious factor in re-writing the wych rules for any codex update, as the bonuses can be critical in getting more out of mediocre units. Combat drugs too could be considered, and of course any formation benefits. Finally, there is separating the role of the wych from the role of out other 10 assault oriented units.

I've waffled about my ideas for army wide mobility upgrades elsewhere, so I won't go on about it here other than noting that almost any form of increased mobility would be a great benefit for wyches. Similarly I'll merely note that I'd like to see some kind of radius effect on generating power from pain, so that other Dark Eldar who watch wyches dismember foes on the battlefield gain benefits, much like they do from watching wyches in the arena.

But identifying the role that wyches play in the army seems like a non-trivial problem to me. Consider the number of (in most cases, equally sub-par) assault oriented units competing for selection:

- Wyches
- Bloodbrides
- Incubi
- Grotesques
- Wracks
- Mandrakes
- Sslyth & Ur-ghuls
- Beastmasters
- Hellions
- Reavers
- Talos
- Cronos

How do we sustain so many options in the hardest phase of the game, and ensure that each has a role to play? How do wyches fit into the jigsaw? What should wyches have in common with other closely aligned units (Reavers, Beastmasters) and what should set them apart?

For example, I can't help but wonder if WS 5 and rending would detract from Incubi. If wyches become more skilled and have a greater chance to break armour then their roles start to overlap, especially if Dodge improves to compensate for their poorer armour. Does this mean wyches should improve in other areas more in line with their specialty and roles, or that Incubi should improve again in those areas?

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Mon Aug 03 2015, 09:22

@El_Jairo wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
I figure that Wyches should be able to beat a group of space marine scouts on the charge.
After all, a group of specialists should be able to beat a group of generalists in the same section and points costs when in their specialty, right?

However, wyches are hitting on 4+ wounding on 5+ and the scouts are getting a 4+ save, vs the scouts hitting on 4+ wounding on 3+ with the wyches getting a 4+ save.
Even if the scouts are outfitted for range, I'd still say they're fairly evenly matched with the wyches in CC.
Sad

The +1 weapon skill will at least let them hit the scouts.
You can't just compare units in a vacuum on stats. As Wyches are in a fast transport they should be able to get the charge in, shoot some pistols and throw a plasma grenade.

Let's assume that scouts are CC and have a Power Sword Sergeant.
Wyches have a Agoniser Hekatrix as that is the only weapon that poses any threat.

So let's do the math: (#attacks x 2hit x 2wound x save)
9 Splinter pistols, kills 1,5 Scouts. (9x 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/2)
1 plasma grenade hits 2,5 Scouts on average and kills 1,25. ( 1 x 5/2 x 1/2 x 1)

You charge and they overwatch with 7-8 scouts. Let's say 8.
They kill 0,89 wych (8 x 1/6 x 2/3 x 1) unless you charge through cover.

So on average on a successfully charge for 8-9", due to fleet.
9 Wyches strike at ini 6 and kill 2 scouts (8x3a x1/2 x1/3 x1/2) Heka kills 1 Scout (1x4a x 1/2 x1/2 x 1)

So at initiative 4 5 scouts hit back at the wyches killing 1,83 wyches (5x2a +1 x 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/2)

So after one game turn you have 7 wyches left and he has 5 scouts left and I rounded numbers in favor of the scouts. So as it is wyches can beat CC scouts, not by a lot but they do.

I also didn't take into account combat drugs, which will increase their combat effectiveness by 17% in 2/3rds of the time (only Ini and Ld boost have an indirect impact on CC)

I just did this math to make it clear that stat changes are quite dramatic and not really needed for this troop choice, just minor tweaks to make the unit workable again.

Dodge upgrade, as you suggested seems cool.
Wych Weapons can be taken per 3 models for Wyches and 0-4 for Bloodbrides (just like for Trueborn Warriors)
Boost Wych Weapons. I think RR to Dodge for Impaler & Shardnet is really hard, as it doubles the survivability of that model in CC. I would say the former rule or reducing attacks of models in B2B contact. Sure this is more complex but nicely unique.
Razorblades I would give Rending, which would insure 25% chance of a AP2 wound on the charge per model. Boosting to hit is pointless with an AP 5 weapon on S3.

Current stats Hydra Gauntlet boost wounds inflicted on T4 by 33%, Razorflails boost 25% vs T4 on the charge and impaler & shardnet only boost 5%.

I do like the fact that all Wych Weapons (WW) are AP 5 as this boost their killyness vs lowly opponents.

What I really would like is WW to be 3rd edition for Blood Brides, thus 1 point per model, half opposing WS to hit you and reduce 1 cc Attack. Wyches used to munch up MEQ, now Bloodbrides would do this Smile
The funny thing was that they weren't very killy but didn't take many wounds at all. So they could dance around their foes all day and slowly kill them by a thousands cuts AND the Agoniser. So the champion (serge) of the pack needed to do the heavy lifting.

Out of curiosity, could you run the numbers in reverse? After all, the scouts also have access to open topped fast skimmer transports so Wyches getting the charge off is by no means guaranteed.

For the sake of narrowing down the numbers: Call it round 3, +1 strength from combat drugs, and Ultramarines who are using one combat doctrine (after all, between chapter tactics formations and pupa smurf they can get a lot of uses of those). Call it even numbers too, with wyches packing a squad leader to even out the points.


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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Mon Aug 03 2015, 10:09

Also, check out what happens when that fast, open-topped transport explodes. 5 Scouts take 1.25 casualties. 5 Wyches take 2.31 (assuming 6+ FNP).

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Mon Aug 03 2015, 10:11

And Scouts get Krak grenades while Wyches don't get haywire any more Sad. Still, at this point we're more interested in the CC potential difference between the two.

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Mon Aug 03 2015, 10:17

Sure, equal point values of each type piling into each other is a useful way of determining relative value but you do have to take into account whether one or other of the units will ever be in a position to actually reach that assault with those numbers. Wyches suffer outside of combat due to their fragility and in combat due to their lackluster assault capability.

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Mon Aug 03 2015, 10:28

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Sure, equal point values of each type piling into each other is a useful way of determining relative value but you do have to take into account whether one or other of the units will ever be in a position to actually reach that assault with those numbers. Wyches suffer outside of combat due to their fragility and in combat due to their lackluster assault capability.

Well on that front Scouts get Infiltrate, Scouts, and Move Through Cover as standard with an option of Stealth for a small price, allowing them to outflank or deep strike with their transport (which is cheaper than our equivalent while carrying a comparable loadout and some cool toys (Including a blinding attack to soften up the target for assault, which is pretty nice)) Also, for the same price as a Venom they can upgrade to a Multi-melta so their transport can reliably pop the enemy's METAL BOXES and the scouts can assault whoever pops out, something that cannot be done with a venom (but can with a raider, if less reliably).


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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Tue Aug 04 2015, 21:52

@FuelDrop wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Sure, equal point values of each type piling into each other is a useful way of determining relative value but you do have to take into account whether one or other of the units will ever be in a position to actually reach that assault with those numbers. Wyches suffer outside of combat due to their fragility and in combat due to their lackluster assault capability.

Well on that front Scouts get Infiltrate, Scouts, and Move Through Cover as standard with an option of Stealth for a small price, allowing them to outflank or deep strike with their transport (which is cheaper than our equivalent while carrying a comparable loadout and some cool toys (Including a blinding attack to soften up the target for assault, which is pretty nice)) Also, for the same price as a Venom they can upgrade to a Multi-melta so their transport can reliably pop the enemy's METAL BOXES and the scouts can assault whoever pops out, something that cannot be done with a venom (but can with a raider, if less reliably).

@Count Adhemar is on the money, Wyches need their FnP buffed (by Chronos) to stand a chance surviving in between CC lock ups. So that is why I take them in maxed squads (10 to have at least 2 Wych Weapons). If you can stay in range of a Chronos in CC, you can get them back up to 4++/4+ saves, which can be very annoying as it is better that a 3+ save.

@Fueldrop
Scouts get different things, that's right. I most envy Move Through Cover (and infiltrate+scout), as it helps with mobility on foot while maintaining some cover protection. True this stacks nicely with Camo Cloaks, but then each scout costs 30% more than a Wych, instead of 10%.
Their transport is comparable but is limited to 5 seats, which is a huge drawback, as 5 men CC scout squads aren't that effective. Multi-Melta option is nice though.

Do keep in mind that the Land Speeder comes without a 5++ and has little upgrade choices.
I'll admit that you don't want to slap a lot of upgrade on our Carton-Board skimmers but I like 6" extra movement and a Nightshield.

I have to admit that the Multi-Melta is quite decent option for popping transports, but it still misses 33% of the time. (I remember 3rd edition wyches having 2 Blasters were still able to fail the target transport. So my lesson was: "never let popping a transport, rely on 1 shooting action")


I would say that 6" extra movement can get you out of charge range from the scouts.
Another thing to consider is: does the rest of the Space Marine army moves at the speed of a Fast Skimmer?
BTW, blind is only effective if you fail you Ini test that phase. So vs Wyches, not very effective.

But back on topic, I do think the survivability of Wyches needs a little boost.
So I would suggest this change to their current rules:
Dodge: Infers 5++ vs overwacht and exploding vehicles and 4++ in CC, 3++ in a challenge (but the last is borderline OP as the Hekatrix is doing all the lifting with the Agoniser)
It's logic as you can save yourself by hurling yourself off a speeding vehicle, from the explosion.

With this rule you would 'only' lose 1,85 Wyches to a vehicle explosion with 6+ FnP, 1,48 with FnP and 0,83 with FnP (4+).

Razorflails confer Rending and
Shardnet & Impaler reduces the number of attack from all models in B2B.
If this is too complex to keep track of: alternative reduce opponents in CC their WS by 1 per S&I.
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Tue Aug 04 2015, 22:15

To do the math on 5 scouts charging 6,3 Wyches (remaining after Raider explosion and FnP 5+ and Combat Drugs +S).

Scouts shoot their 4 pistols and 1 Frag Grenade at wyches: 1,67 wounds
4 Bolt Pistols deal 0,98 wounds: 4x1a x 2/3 x 2/3 x 5/9 (you go to ground to get 6+)
Frag Grenade 0,69 wounds : 1x2,5 hits x 1/2 x 5/9

4 Wyches attack at Ini 6: 1,75 wounds
3x2a x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 1 wound
Heka 1x 3a x 1/2 x 1/2 0,75 wound

At init 4 3 scouts strike:
3x 3a x1/2 x2/3 x 1/3 1 wound

So in the end you have 3 Wyches vs 3 Scouts.
I took the liberty to take straigth FnP because scouts trying to charge your wyches.
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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Tue Aug 04 2015, 23:45

Thanks for running the numbers for me. I thought going to ground dropped you to I1, but I've been wrong before.

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PostSubject: Re: A Wych wishlist   Wed Aug 05 2015, 00:47

When going to ground you don't become I1, the rule states:

Quote :
If assaulted, the unit will fight as usual, but because they are not set to receive the charge, enemy units do not receive the Initiative penalty for assaulting a unit in difficult terrain, even if the unit is in difficult terrain.
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