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 Can a Wych Cult be viable?

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FuelDrop
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 13:52

Right. My army was conceived back in 5th edition as a 2 part force: A Kabal, and an allied Wych Cult.

As a result, I have 40 wyches (10 of which are metal from back in the day).

Now obviously now that I've come back to DE for 7th I've run into a fundamental problem with this concept.

So... is there any way to make my Wyches earn their points back with any degree of reliability?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 14:07

Possibly, as long as your opponent agrees to never, under any circumstances, shoot at your Wyches or their transport.

Oh, and as long as the enemy is frightened of S3 melee attacks with no special rules.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 14:23

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Possibly, as long as your opponent agrees to never, under any circumstances, shoot at your Wyches or their transport.

Oh, and as long as the enemy is frightened of S3 melee attacks with no special rules.

Right. *Cracks knuckles* I got this.

Out of curiosity, besides the dodge save and initiative is there any way that a Wych is better in close combat than an Ork Boy costing half the points?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 14:42

I suppose in the unlikely event that the Wych has survived to turn 6, she would then have Fearless, Furious Charge, Rage and FNP so she might actually manage to damage something on the charge and possibly even survive their return attacks.

Let me know if that ever happens!

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 15:12

Maybe deepstrike them in later turns, with reserve manipulation, to make them survive the early turns.

The dark artisan will be in position and will be able to buff the wyches.
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kidfist0
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 15:32

if the best way to make use of a unit is to try and make sure it spends as little time on the table as possible.....

maybe those points are just better spent elsewhere

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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 15:50

@FuelDrop wrote:

So... is there any way to make my Wyches earn their points back with any degree of reliability?

Short answer:  no.

Long answer:  only if you proxy them as Kabalite Warriors and/or Harlequins.
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WrackYourBrains
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 16:42

Being I6, wyches are pretty likely to sweep an enemy unit IF they manage to inflict more wounds than them in combat and IF the enemy fail their LD test. Armour of Misery on a Succubus can help with the latter but those are two pretty big IFs.

If you run the numbers, your Hekatrixes (Hekatrii?) are by far the biggest damage dealers so you're probably best with MSU builds, taking an agoniser for your Hekatrix. Look to gang up on enemy units, charging them with two or three wych units at once.

Sadly they're all glass and no cannon.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 16:48

As ablative wounds for Succubi. Even then the only thing you are winning chosing them over grots is point cost.

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 16:52

Sadly, wyches are ten point hormagaunts with a pistol and 4++ In cc. They NEED fnp and furious charge to do anything so that's turn 4. Maybe give them a homunculus and a turn 3 charge might work ok? I've been converting my 40 odd wyches into Harleys though.
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MHaruspex
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 17:00

Null deployment with animus vitae is something I'm working on for my cult. Turn 3 they have furious charge if it works out, and if they only come on turn 2 most games anyway that's exactly when you want it.

Reavers > Wyches, but Wych squads don't hurt to have to hold things in place with 4++ while the Reavers pull Hit and Run shenanigans. Conventional wisdom is that you pull out every two rounds of combat, but if you can pull out after one without risking getting shot at that's probably better.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 17:52

Applying Thor's litmus test to determine if a unit is objectively bad or just overpriced, I will pose the following question: if Wyches cost 5pts per model, would they be worth taking?
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 17:59

At 5pts per model, you could put 200 wyches, in a 1000 points game. I'm at work, so, I can't look in my codex to do math, but, to put a hekatrix in 6 squads, with haywire grenade, plus a few lance raider, and you still could have a decent amount of cannon meat.

I would definitely try them.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 21:26

@sweetbacon wrote:
Applying Thor's litmus test to determine if a unit is objectively bad or just overpriced, I will pose the following question:  if Wyches cost 5pts per model, would they be worth taking?  

Yes. Quantity has a quality all its own.
I would keep them off the board till late game since I would be a smaller chunk of my points doing nothing for 3 turns.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Fri Jun 26 2015, 22:55

They are horribad. We've decoted pages upon pages trying to find a way to make them good, and yet still they suck.

There are two options. One, convert them into harlequins. Two, save them and hope they get super buffed in the next edition.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Mon Jun 29 2015, 01:49

Wyches are a quite nice support for HQ. They will never do damage (except maybe the single Haywire Greneade), but are a nice 4++ amount of plus-wounds-shield, for the Archon/Heka/Haem.

A full wych list cannot work. A full wychcult list (i.e. Succubus, Wyches, Reavers, Razorwings, Beastmasters, Voidreavens) yes, it can work.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Mon Jun 29 2015, 01:59

I've had medium success in my attempts at a Wych cult. The most I've used is thirty Wyches. The rest of the army was support through Bikes, Ravagers, Incubi, and a Bomber.

In general, it does well against Xenos armies. And better against more static armies. MEQ are a pain. My tactics have generally been to swarm to one flank with the entire assault force. Then focus fire that flank. Lots of tag team charges.

The transports (if they live) move to objective grabbing.

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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Mon Jun 29 2015, 02:00

Run towards objectives in a decked out raider and hope for it to survive. Make other things a bigger target...like a Talos.....or nine.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Wed Jul 01 2015, 09:48

Dodge would work In overwatch and All wyches get Haywire grenades back.. BAM Playable.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Wed Jul 01 2015, 10:36

@amishprn86 wrote:
Dodge would work In overwatch and All wyches get Haywire grenades back.. BAM Playable.

I'm happy for them not to have haywire as the idea of them taking out tanks but being unable to take out a Fire Warrior reliably offends me. But they do need something in exchange for the loss of haywire. They need to actually be capable of doing some damage if they make it into combat!

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Wed Jul 01 2015, 10:48

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Dodge would work In overwatch and All wyches get Haywire grenades back.. BAM Playable.

I'm happy for them not to have haywire as the idea of them taking out tanks but being unable to take out a Fire Warrior reliably offends me. But they do need something in exchange for the loss of haywire. They need to actually be capable of doing some damage if they make it into combat!

WHAT!?!? Shocked It fits the Theme so well.... DE are Raiders. How else would they Raider vehicles without a way to stop them and get into them?

I see Haywire Wyches as a Vehicle Raiding Party, that will Rush to there price, Sneak attack with Mines/Bombs to stop the vehicles, open it up and Kill the people inside Smile

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Wed Jul 01 2015, 10:56

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Dodge would work In overwatch and All wyches get Haywire grenades back.. BAM Playable.

I'm happy for them not to have haywire as the idea of them taking out tanks but being unable to take out a Fire Warrior reliably offends me. But they do need something in exchange for the loss of haywire. They need to actually be capable of doing some damage if they make it into combat!

WHAT!?!?   Shocked   It fits the Theme so well.... DE are Raiders. How else would they Raider vehicles without a way to stop them and get into them?

I see Haywire Wyches as a Vehicle Raiding Party, that will Rush to there price, Sneak attack with Mines/Bombs to stop the vehicles, open it up and Kill the people inside Smile

Wyches are gladiators, not sappers! Plus, even with haywire, they still suffer from being able to take out the tank but completely unable to take out the occupants. Especially as they only way to take out the tank is in close combat, which then leaves them standing around like lemons whilst the unit that was inside the tanks casually gets out and shoots them to hell.

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thenick18
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Wed Jul 01 2015, 11:46

Rending or poison would be fine with me. Giving them poison gives them the ability to go after MC's which is fluffy for those who are supposed to be gladiators.
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The PayneTrayn
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Wed Jul 01 2015, 21:37

How about alternative methods of wounding? Say, using initiative in place of strength, or getting bonus attacks equal to difference in initiative? Monstrous creatures and vehicles immune, of course.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Can a Wych Cult be viable?   Wed Jul 01 2015, 22:08

In Warhamer Fantasy, Dark Elf Witch Elves were in many ways the counterpart to Wyches: Strength 3, Toughness 3, and no armour, and they drop like flies if anything shoots at them. And yet they kick ass.

Why not give Wyches the same ability that Witch Elves had? Every 'To Hit' roll of 6 causes an automatic wound. Harlequins already have that, and it is resolved at AP 2, but I'm not even suggesting that. Just a normal, AP - whatever-you've-got wound.
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