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 Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Mon Sep 28 2015, 20:18

Technically it is not as beer has to meet certain criteria to be called "beer".
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Xalopec
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Mon Sep 28 2015, 21:30

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
But when the imperials group together it's okay?

All of the mentioned "problem armies" are standalone.

Quite the opposite. Many top tier armies use A LOT of allies. Just to name a few: Superfriends, Wolfstar, Centstar with Draigo + Tigi, Admech + Drop Pods, Imperial Knights, Eldar + Dark Eldar taxi service, Deamons + Helldrakes, etc.

So if you want to compete against armies with strong codices who also use allies, why refusing to use them yourself?

Besides fluffwise I don't exactly play a Dark Elder Kabal. I play an outcast pleasure cult. The rumors about the new corsairs would perfectly match my armies fluff, if they were true.

Heres a link to a batrep, if someone is interested.
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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Mon Sep 28 2015, 21:33

Gave up on the dark kin myself since the 7th edition codex.  I play them maybe once a month now, and that's only against my teenage nephew.  He's dark angels though so it's a surprisingly tough fight despite his inexperience.

I've been working on some corsair hornets and jetpack troopers now, hoping their list comes out soon so I can decide how to convert/salvage my dark eldar warriors, jetbikes, and venoms.

A large grotesquerie might be the only thing I'd actually use from the dark eldar book(s) going forward.  Then again, if corsair walkers get the rumored 4++ re-rollable vs melee, they'll be no real reason to even bring the grots (except of course that I already have them).
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Tue Sep 29 2015, 11:12

@CptMetal wrote:
But when the imperials group together it's okay?

I say the same for IoM books as I say for DE - codices should be able to stand on their own, without allies.

Moreover, allies should be about fluff or about changing how an army plays. They shouldn't just make an army stronger with no cost or drawback whatsoever.
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thenick18
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Tue Sep 29 2015, 12:18

I agree with your thoughts Shredder. To me allies should be for fun, if you wanted to take unit X because you like unit X from another army then do so, but not because unit X is the IWIN button and you want to take all the IWIN buttons from each army.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Tue Sep 29 2015, 13:01

I take a Farseer to represent the Web way based nature of my fleet. We take in volunteers and only visit the dark city to trade in slaves and buy stuff.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Tue Sep 29 2015, 13:16

I find that where Farseers, Wraithknights, Fire Dragons and such are concerned, people are so very creative with their fluff.

Oddly though, when it comes to units that aren't the strongest in the book, no one seems inclined to make even the slightest effort.
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Tue Sep 29 2015, 13:39

I can come up with the most elaborate fluff to explain why my DE are playing alongside Eldar/IG/CSM. I may think its pretty good. But you might find it ridiculous. Fluff is very much perspective.
Easier to just share a paint schemes across all your models.
That bein said I'm happy to admit my I use my WK coz it stomps face. I'm sure the marine player isn't using 10 rhinos/razorbacks because he finds them aesthetically pleasing.
Use whatever you can. And if you dont want to, that's fine. Just accept someone else probably will.

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stilgar27
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Tue Sep 29 2015, 14:36

Fluff is all subjective of course.  Personally I find it exceedingly silly for the dark eldar, who harbor a huge bias (if not outright hatred) against psykers, to have to actively seek out psykers as allies.

This is a fluff problem but one that goes back to the basic weakness of the book.  If you exclude yourself from the psychic phase, because (fluff) your entire culture is devoted to the suppression of psychic phenomenon... well then you better have some actual ability (crunch) to suppress psychic phenomenon, or otherwise be powerful enough that you can ignore enemy psykers altogether.

So what's our codex's solution?  A couple of limited range, afterthought relics (Helmet of Spite, Crucible of malediction) that aren't very effective to begin with but are then severely limited by cost and availability.  Meanwhile the other "anti-psyker" army (black templar) gets adamantium will as an army-wide special rule to make up for their lack of psykers.  Seems balanced...

I was bringing a converted Culexus Assassin for a while, modded out to look something like a Haemonculous.  I had to stop as it made me cringe every time I thought of fielding an Imperial Assassin with a dark eldar army, even though in a lot of ways it fits the fluff.  The dark kin do have "blanks", and their culture is largely devoted to suppressing psykers.  So why haven't they come up with the same (surprisingly) elegant solution the Monkieghs have?

Because the "game designers" were too lazy to give the dark kin any sort of real options or character, that's why.


Last edited by stilgar27 on Wed Sep 30 2015, 14:35; edited 1 time in total
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Tue Sep 29 2015, 15:13

Eldar have blanks? Never heard of those.

Of course I also want a psyker because he's good. No doubt. But I never wanted to play a Commorragh based Kabal anyway. Why should I mingle in such a society? I seek freedom only a life as a free roaming pirate cab give me! And I despise true born nobility, so I only recruit renegades and slaves. Granted I steal bodies but that's something entirely different of course...

I should create a thread about the idea behind your armies.

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The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
+++++END OF TRANSMISSION+++++
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Tue Sep 29 2015, 19:55

In the fluff Vect has been capturing human blanks to prevent Khaine's Gate from opening. One could come up with fluff for a culexus assassin being in a DE army. Maybe not as a culexus but, using its rules and a different model.
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 00:16

@CptMetal wrote:
Eldar have blanks? Never heard of those.

Yeah it's what our guns mostly fire.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 01:52

Shredder that's because no one asks for justification when I bring rangers (I think bikes are too cheesy).

If I put a knight on the table and provide the most perfect reason why, people would snort and deride me for it. So perhaps save your snort and derision next time because statements like that from people like that are the reason for such elaborate fluff. It's a defense against snide jerks.

Mod me if you must, I simply can't stand this passive aggressive attitude that's set into my beloved city.

That got ranty. Sorry.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 10:13

@The Red King wrote:
If I put a knight on the table and provide the most perfect reason why,  people would snort and deride me for it.  So perhaps save your snort and derision next time because statements like that from people like that are the reason for such elaborate fluff. It's a defense against snide jerks.

And I get fed up with people acting as if the Wraithknight, Farseers etc. in heir "DE" army are somehow fluffy and *that's* the reason they're using them - rather than just admitting that they're using them because they're the strongest units in the codex (quite possibly in the game).

@The Red King wrote:
I simply can't stand this passive aggressive attitude that's set into my beloved city.

You know, I remember when this was a site for DE. As opposed to a site for Eldar lists that grudgingly include some DE.
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 10:50

I don't think anyones suggested the primary reason for taking the best selection of Eldar units is for fluff.
That's just a convenience.
I (and I assume most others)  take units like that coz they're good. And by good I mean better than what we have with out current 'dex.
How can you complain about a winning combination from the SM 'dex and be bitterly resentful about a winning combination of DE/E? Coz its not all from the same book? Many of the best armies seems to be based around multiple FOC / Formations from differing 'dexs
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 11:10

@flakmonkey wrote:
I don't think anyones suggested the primary reason for taking the best selection of Eldar units is for fluff.

Except that that's the opposite of what I've seen.

@flakmonkey wrote:

How can you complain about a winning combination from the SM 'dex yet be bitterly resentful about a winning combination of DE/E? Coz its not all from the same book?

Because it's better than anything DE could do alone.

For about the 15th time, there should be a cost to using allies - it shouldn't be all upside and nor should it make an army outright better.

There is no reason why an Eldar/DE army should be stronger than a pure DE or pure Eldar army.
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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 11:21

6th re-introduced the ally matrix and 7th has taken the process of army building even further with multiple combined arms detachments, allies and formations. If you find yourself feeling bitter about our codex, stop and take a breath. Open your mind to the wide world of possibilities that is 7th edition 40k.

2 weeks ago I was a passive onlooker at a large 40 person tournament. I watched an out of towner front up with his dark eldar kabal, coven and a corpsethief claw formation and I saw him stomp everybody on the way to winning. 2 CADs and a formation, totally DE and it dominated. It was beautiful.

I would dearly love to have the tournament fortune I had with my kabal earier in the year continue but I have to face some hard truths.

The Kabal has a movement phase and a shooting phase. These are the only phases when I can affect the game. I need more action from the other phases. The coven source is there if I want to go choppy and resilient for an epic assault phase. Craftworld Eldar is there if I want guaranteed reserve manipulation or a psychic phase. Rather than deride peoples choices, we need to accept that there is so much choice in the game. It has never been harder to compile a take all-comers list and that is a good place for 40K to be in.

At all 3 major local tournaments so far this year, formations, allies and multiple detachments from multiple factions have produced winners. Why limit your choices?

I took an aspect warhost this evening because my trueborn weren't doing their job. I was fed up with mech lists getting the better of me. Fire Dragons solved that, for less points, too I might add. Yay for choice, I say!

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 11:33

Quote :
Many of the best armies seems to be based around multiple FOC / Formations from differing 'dexs

And still you can play a pure Necron, Eldar, Space MArine, Dark Angel, KDK,... army without running in half the trouble a pure DE has.
The only thing that makes us worthwhile is Eldar allies. And at this point if you have to ally anyways... why bother playing DE at all?
The speed theme is better covered by eldar anyways (as their units are faster), you have a broad spectrum of playstyles, the aesthetics are similar and the are a glass cannon with a big cannon and the glass is pretty much bullet proof.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 11:35

@DEfan wrote:

At all 3 major local tournaments so far this year, formations, allies and multiple detachments from multiple factions have produced winners. Why limit your choices?

You're right.

I mean, God forbid anyone like DE and only DE, rather than immediately liking all the races they're now best buds with.
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 11:40

@DEfan wrote:
6th re-introduced the ally matrix and 7th has taken the process of army building even further with multiple combined arms detachments, allies and formations. If you find yourself feeling bitter about our codex, stop and take a breath. Open your mind to the wide world of possibilities that is 7th edition 40k.

This. You can literally take anything you want, for whatever reasons you want, with minimal to no penalties. So why not make use of it?

Because our 'dex lacks massively in few/some/all areas? But you'd rather not fill the gap?

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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 11:47

Your mixing competitive event play with casual play.

The competitive scene is just that - you build the best list possible. Ferrari don't under engineer their cars for the F1 to be fun and true to the roots of the brand - they race to win.

You like Dark eldar - Great! I like my Evo X Mitsubishi! I can't take that to the F1 and expect to win it!

Its about deciding what you want from the event - you want to win? you adapt and deal with it by embracing the cheese and accepting that its the way things are. Want to run pure DE - that's fine but you then accept that its the limitation you have imposed on yourself outside of what is allowed.

If you are ok with just playing games regardless of win/lose then take pure DE and see what happens. You need to adapt in the competitive environment or be left behind.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 11:53

Quote :
But you'd rather not fill the gap?

Because filling the gap with eldar allies has become "flavor your Eldar with a few DE"

This actually sums it up:

Quote :
I took an aspect warhost this evening because my trueborn weren't doing their job. I was fed up with mech lists getting the better of me. Fire Dragons solved that, for less points, too I might add. Yay for choice, I say!

If you get manhandled by mech lists and suddenly do better by repacing your dedicated AT against an Eldar AT that has exactly the same task and similar equipment for the job, you had no choice. You had to replace them to do better. It was not for their looks or their different approach. It was because your stuff lacks power. This is no choice.
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 11:56

@Massaen wrote:
Your mixing competitive event play with casual play.

The competitive scene is just that - you build the best list possible. Ferrari don't under engineer their cars for the F1 to be fun and true to the roots of the brand - they race to win.

You like Dark eldar - Great! I like my Evo X Mitsubishi! I can't take that to the F1 and expect to win it!

Its about deciding what you want from the event - you want to win? you adapt and deal with it by embracing the cheese and accepting that its the way things are. Want to run pure DE - that's fine but you then accept that its the limitation you have imposed on yourself outside of what is allowed.

If you are ok with just playing games regardless of win/lose then take pure DE and see what happens. You need to adapt in the competitive environment or be left behind.

From what you're saying, it sounds like I need to find a different game. One where I can actually play the army I want, rather than having to spend a ton of money on other armies I have no interest in in order to prop up my army.

Farewell Dark Eldar City.
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 12:08

That's your call mate

Everything evolves or is left behind and doomed

If you want to try and win events in any game you simply have little choice but to compete in the same manner as the field at large.

If playing pure DE is your thing and you wont budge then casual gaming with like minded opponents or acceptance of middling results at events is about what you can expect with the changes that 7th ed had wrought on the game

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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: Played against New SM book..... Im done with DE for now.   Wed Sep 30 2015, 12:10

This is starting to sound like the discussions I have with a CSM player. Although in those he and his poor CSM are the center of the universe.

Weak/poorly written codexs are not isolated to the DE. Several factions suffer.

It's an issue caused by GW design/writers/whatever.

Use Allies. Don't use Allies. Personal choice, just like paint schemes.

Hope for a better write up next time around. It's allllll cyclical.

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