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 How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Fri Jul 17 2015, 16:27

Interesting article here about the lack of synergy in our codex.

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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Sat Jul 18 2015, 13:38

wow well written article, i got pretty sad reading it and got me thinking when do we get a new codex
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Sat Jul 18 2015, 13:59

Indeed, the article covers a serious problem with our codex and covers it well.

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thenick18
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Sat Jul 18 2015, 15:15

I'd like to see drugs go to d3, with +1A +1S or +1T. Or if it must remain a d6 how about we get an option for +1" to movement?
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Sat Jul 18 2015, 17:53

I would like drugs to give us a special rule. Like one meth+1 to feel no pain. Cocaine +Move Though Cover. Heroin+ Reroll failed saves. Etc.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Sun Jul 19 2015, 15:09

Our book and every book that came from that same batch (orks, GK, BA, IG etc) all need an overhaul. Or better yet trash them and work off their predecessors. Its that bad. Oh we can compete in friendly's at pts levels of 1200 and below but anything larger and our one trick- spam gets outclassed if people go full stop. I would like to see the designers of eldar, SM, DA collaborate on our dex actually. Then we would at least be in the same ballpark for power level and get our own decurion.
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thenick18
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Sun Jul 19 2015, 15:41

Somehow I doubt GW would actually call the drugs by real drug names. But to the point, yes there are so many ways/options that GW could have taken to make ALL options on the drug table helpful. I think we can discuss what effects the drugs would have on our troops til the cows come home. Let's just hope that GW has a mind to view these forums for ideas on the next re-write.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Sun Jul 19 2015, 15:51

thenick18 wrote:
Let's just hope that GW has a mind to view these forums for ideas on the next re-write.

Oh, I needed a good laugh today... Very Happy
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Sun Jul 19 2015, 16:03

Dark Eldar players are angry? Nuff hammer now includes scourges only taking 1 heavy and special because people were spamming them
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Black Death
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Tue Jul 21 2015, 07:37

Make them outta lead and chunk them at your opponents army... hAHA. Seriously tho, I just spent the weekend combing thru the dex trying to come up with some sorta plan to use mine in an upcoming tourney and just couldn't find away to field them without allies, which is part of the tourney, no allies. I so want to play my beautiful army but other then spamming the bejesus out of raiders and venoms, I'm at a loss.

As for me, I'm not angry, just disappointed.

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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Tue Jul 21 2015, 20:12

Disappointed is the right word. It wasn't even that bad when it came out. It's just that all the new ones are so much more interesting and fun in comparison. A pure Dark Eldar all comers list makes for a challenging game.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Tue Jul 21 2015, 23:03

Quote :
It wasn't even that bad when it came out.

It was. At this time Space Marines, Eldar, Tau and even nids with all new units and dataslates were way stronger.
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Tue Jul 21 2015, 23:05

I think a short term solution would be to allow Apoc formations. a few of them make up for some of our weeknesses.  

1. Vehicle webway portal as a fortification twin link on arrival.  
2. Razorwing Formation that gives them a d3 per razorwing  STR 8 AP3 that are like the old reaver jetbike move attack.  Can also assign 1 hit per Razorwing rest are random.
3. Skyfire formation + Move-shoot-flatout raiders.
4. Ravager formation that gives shrouding, and anti-invul save markerlight.

Except for the jet fighter and ravager formation there are lots of different units that can make up these formations for lots of variability.
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Tue Jul 21 2015, 23:08

Razorwings should have Vector Dancer and Vector strike
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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Wed Jul 22 2015, 04:25

JackKnife01 wrote:
Razorwings should have Vector Dancer and Vector strike

They certainly need Vector Dancer but I don't thin Vector Strike is appropriate. That'd make them kamikaze pilots! They have missiles for shooting ground targets anyway.

Frankly the entire codex needs rewriting, there're too many holes, weaknesses and a clear lack of synergy through the list. To name a few things we need buffs to Hellions (plasma 'nades and assault from deep strike might make them good) and Wyches (better rules for Wych weapons and their Dodge++ woking during overwatch is needed). Venoms/Raiders/Ravagers should have the option of both night shields (for cover diving sniping vehicles) and flickerfields (for getting into your opponents face). HQ's need to be cheaper or better and with improved wargear overall. Ravagers need Aerial Assault back because it was the one advantage DE fast skimmers had over everything else (and it's dumb being force to act like a slow tank just to shoot all 3 guns. Voidraven needs a price reduction on its missiles or it's void bomb needs to be buffed up to a D weapon (makes sense as it's probably meant to be bombing super heavies anyway). The Reaper and Tantalus from forge world need updated rules and bringing into the codex (with the Reaper sporting a D weapon).

Although a huge chunk of the DE list is close combat focussed few of the units can do their role properly because they lack either plasma grenades or a means to survive overwatch. The list is nowhere close to being the king of speed it really should be. Units should be able to assault from transports even if they moved at cruising speed. Reavers should be able to outflank as an option and Scourges need to be able to deep strike accurately (like their Swooping Hawk cousins). And the DE need free transports. DE were mechanized from the start and they've always needed to be mechanized. Space Marines were never meant to be mechanized infantry. They don't even use drop pods that much. You'd think every battle involving Space Marines was them assaulting a planet from space with the number of pods you see people throwing around.

There are other changes that can be made too but the biggest problem is the units don't compliment each other well enough. This is why Venom/Raider spam is the only competitive strategy. The same strategy works for all armies (Razorback spam, Serpent spam) because troops are the most cost effective units on the table. But other armies have their specialists who taken in combinations or in formations can wreck face. Look at Eldar Aspect armies for a highly specialist force that works. But when DE start taking their speciality troops things start getting worse.The codex would have remained broken even if GW hadn't decided to chomp down a whole bottle of powercreep pills.

I'd really like to see a Living Codex for the DE that the playerbase can agree is fair compared to the new super codexes and have that Living Codex be accepted in play. I don't think GW are going to correct their mistake any time soon so we're stuck with a broken codex whilst more and more dexes are pumped full of steroids.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Wed Jul 22 2015, 17:28

Quote :
I'd really like to see a Living Codex for the DE that the playerbase can agree is fair compared to the new super codexes and have that Living Codex be accepted in play. I don't think GW are going to correct their mistake any time soon so we're stuck with a broken codex whilst more and more dexes are pumped full of steroids.
I'm on board with this and I think many others are too, its just getting it organized and semi official (like say ITC and FLG supporting the endeavor would be sick). I'm not just talking about DE but every dex. Locally I've been working on an errata for all the codices that is subject to group approval. It's very difficult to errata poorly written books because so many things are absent or don't function properly. The top tier are much easier to tone down in just a few places and be done with it.

That said It really puts things into perspective when you are writing rules changes for your own army. A lot of the wish listing stuff actually goes out the window when you consider that you will actually need to support those changes in debates with other players.
It also makes me realize to just what level this game ISN'T balanced. Anyone who thinks this is for competitive play is fooling themselves, which is about the point I woke up and decided theres nothing wrong with making your own adjustments to GWs sales pitch, I mean rules.
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deekthegreat
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Fri Jul 24 2015, 21:02

So on Frontline gaming if you can find the report there is a dark eldar player who ranked 18th at the BAO for those of you who are not familiar with the BAO it's one of the many itc events on the west coast. So dark eldar can be competitive is it easy no but my goodness the smile that cracked on my face when I saw that they could actually rank relatively high made me giggle
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Fri Jul 24 2015, 21:35

I can't seem to find the report there.. Do you have a link?

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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Fri Jul 24 2015, 22:02

It is here.
\
BAO results

DE / E combo. I know I saw the army, but i can't for the life of me remember what is in it.

(Team is the West Coast Corsairs, no, the primary detachment was not FW corsairs)
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deekthegreat
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Fri Jul 24 2015, 23:17

If you scroll through the results you'll see dark eldar alone in 83rd kinda makes me a little sad but hey at least they ranked higher than last
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Sat Jul 25 2015, 02:40

We made top 20 twice. I feel solid about that.
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SCP Yeeman
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Sat Jul 25 2015, 05:10

Dark Eldar can be competitive in tournaments. Sure taking some Eldar to fill holes is needed and helps a bunch but complaining about them not being competitive simply is not true. Even pure DE can compete at a high level when played correctly.

I have placed high at every GT I have been to with them in all of the years I have played inluding 2 this year. Bugeater GT I got 4th out of 42 and at Wargamescon I finished 7th out of 72.

We can be a very strong book, but the learning curve and generalship of our army needs to be very high. We are not point and click or lug and play. Target priority and overall knowledge of the game is what leads me to victory more often than anything.
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Sat Jul 25 2015, 05:17

Demantiae wrote:
Space Marines were never meant to be mechanized infantry. They don't even use drop pods that much. You'd think every battle involving Space Marines was them assaulting a planet from space with the number of pods you see people throwing around.

Yeah Rolling Eyes the elite spearhead assault forces of the astartes would never utilise lightning shock assault tactics...

Its what the astartes DO!

They are not attrition forces nor do they hold objectives - they smash in hard and destroy the opposition then let the other imperial forces consolidate

Just because the DE are a raiding force does not mean that the same tactics are outside of every other force. Astartes NEED to be mobile - all the elite military formations of today are the same.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Sat Jul 25 2015, 05:28

What we need is mobility, and enough control of the battlefield that we can dictate the flow of the fight.

Splinter weapons are not mobile. They're rapid fire, so we have to get into spitting distance to use them to full effect and can't follow that up with an assault. Splinter Cannons are even worse, with Salvo giving them a massively reduced effective range. So we have weapons that don't pack that much punch (against most infantry they're about on par with flashlights, and even against heavy infantry they're rarely better than bolters), are only putting out a meaningful number of shots within spitting distance, and are accompanied by support weapons that encourage us to be slow or even stationary before they start earning their points. This isn't making a fast army, it's making an army that's at war with itself.

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: How can the Dark Eldar become competitive??   Sat Jul 25 2015, 20:38

I gotta agree with SCP Yeeman mostly. I have my issues with DE since there's definitely some real stinkers in this book. That said it is strong, stronger than its previous iteration in more ways then not and I guess thats what irks me. Its the little things, not the better things that got neglected.

Anyway on topic a little out of the box thinking goes a LONG way with this army. That and simply meta gaming the current environment.

For example, theres the obvious scalpel squadron to enable null deployment and its completely viable. However we can also accomplish a very functional form of that with other tools. Namely mandrakes and beastmasters. In fact having used both I'm gonna say the latter is my preference and its actually stronger in many ways especially in conjunction with reavers. We can even put nids to shame with our extreme msu.

As for meta gaming I feel DE need to move past dark light already. Its poor due to cost and low availability. However disi cannons and melta are both insane right now. Also straight venom spam was last edition. Its a good tool but now raiders are on equal footing IMO.
We can even put grav spam to shame with our volume of ap 2 fire and in return we are mostly immune to grav. Forcing jink and countering marines is the name of this game in 7th. We do both insanely well to the point of being just as unfun as facing say.. scatbike spam.
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