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 How to fix Wracks?

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omkara
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PostSubject: How to fix Wracks?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 13:39

As a purely Haemonculus Coven player and to some with the intention of doing so, it comes as no surprise that you're having trouble with Vehicles and Flyers.

I think a relatively simple solution for extra AV would be to give the Wracks the option to wield Haywire Blasters considering the Talos are also able to do so, so from a "lore" point of view, the Coven would indeed fight with such weaponry.

The Wracks, including the Acothyst, instead of double Wrack tools, should all simply be wielding 1 Wrack Tool and 1 Stinger Pistol (or at least have the option to take a Stinger Pistol), as they are "Elite" choices after all. On top of that, as with the Trueborns and the Grotesques, all Wracks should have the option to take a Liquifier Gun or Ossefactor being their "special weapons" or just the regular Heavy Weapon choices such as the Haywire Blaster.

Another thing I want back for the Wracks is their 2 Wound characteristic as both It Will Not Die and Eternal Warrior from the Power From Pain table are otherwise entirely useless for them.

And last but not least, how do we take down flyers? Remember how the Scourge are altered by the Haemonculi to receive their wings? Surely the Haemonculi should be willing to do this for their Wracks and models with wings should be given something similar to the Intercept rule from the Swooping Hawks so we can take on flyers without needing to have an actual flyer.

At the same time, Wings should be an upgrade-able choice for any model in the Haemonculus Army. Haemonculi, Talos, Cronos, Grotesques, all should have this option as it does not make sense that Haemonculi would only alter some spoiled rich Dark Eldar trueborn, but not their own attendants and guards.

Obviously, point cost would need to be altered. I think 15 - 18 points per Wrack with 2 wounds and Wings seems reasonable yes?

Your opinions please Smile

(ps, how to deal with knights on equal base; we'd need a huge Talos like hulk of flesh equivalent of a knight - I'm sure to Haemonculi would just love to build such a horrid creature)

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 13:44

Moved to DE Discussion - Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 15:00

1) move them to the troops section

2) let them all swap a wrack tool for a splinter rifle for a couple of points a go

i know that does nothing for their vehicle/flyer capabilities, but it gives them an actual role in the book
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 15:11

kidfist0 wrote:
1) move them to the troops section

2) let them all swap a wrack tool for a splinter rifle for a couple of points a go

i know that does nothing for their vehicle/flyer capabilities, but it gives them an actual role in the book

From a lore wise point of view, I don't really think the Splinter Rifles fit the Wracks. Then again, I'm no lore buff, but having them as a Troops with Splinter Rifles doesn't really have them be very different from the normal Dark Eldar Kabalites other than having 5+ FNP from the start and a T4.

And from a Haemonculus Coven player point of view; they already are our Troops. I'd personally say that my concept on how to "pimp" the Wracks would make them far more interesting, even for normal Dark Eldar players.

Wracks with 2 Wounds, the option to give all of them Stinger Pistols, Liquifier Guns, Ossefactors Hexrifles, Haywire Blasters AND Wings surely beats just making them a Troop choice with Splinter Rifle options, doesn't it? (no disrespect meant by the way Wink )

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 15:36

I agree that Wracks are in a very weird spot and in their current form they really should just be a troop choice. However, I'd rather like to have well working Wyches/Hellions as melee troops than Wracks.

I too think that Wracks should have access to AV, as it would give them a place in a Coven army. Currently, they are just worse Grotesques. I think some kind of a "corroding acid Liquifier gun" with bonus dice against vehicles would be nice and fitting against vehicles, but I think Haywire Blasters are reasonable as well.

Bringing back liquifiers to S4 is a must, same applies to more wracks having access to special wargear. However, if the points were to stay at the same level, giving them 2 wounds would be over the top (as much as I'd like to have 2 wounds too).

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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 15:42

The Strange Dark One wrote:
I agree that Wracks are in a very weird spot and in their current form they really should just be a troop choice. However, I'd rather like to have well working Wyches/Hellions as melee troops than Wracks.

I too think that Wracks should have access to AV, as it would give them a place in a Coven army. Currently, they are just worse Grotesques. I think some kind of a "corroding acid Liquifier gun" with bonus dice against vehicles would be nice and fitting against vehicles, but I think Haywire Blasters are reasonable as well.

Bringing back liquifiers to S4 is a must, same applies to more wracks having access to special wargear. However, if the points were to stay at the same level, giving them 2 wounds would be over the top (as much as I'd like to have 2 wounds too).

I can see why you'd want Hellions as a Troop choice, especially considering they used to have this option due to the strangely removed Baron. Sometimes GW really makes some weird choices it seems.

The only Reason why you'd want to take Wracks at the moment is because an Ossefactor aint that bad and they bring along the option to take Venoms. The Liquifier Guns, would be nice at Strength 4, or they should just as well be 4+ poisoned (which would completely be in line with any other form of weaponry they wield).

As for keeping the same point cost after their wounds have been upgraded to 2 would indeed be over powered. I'm guessing that including the wings and 2 wounds a Wrack should cost somewhere in between 15 to 18 points.

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 23:03

omkara wrote:

The only Reason why you'd want to take Wracks at the moment is because an Ossefactor aint that bad and they bring along the option to take Venoms.

And to unlock null deployment.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 14:07

I feel that Wracks should be troops. For one, that would make it so that they're no longer competing with Grotesques, and for two it would mean that the 3 main aspects (Coven, Wyches and Kabalites) of our army are all represented in our troops.

After that, I'm not sure. Though I do like the idea of having them each start with a pistol and Wrack Weapon.

Anyway, some thoughts:

- Possibly let Acothysts (and Haemonculi) take Ossefactors.
- Make Hexrifles cheaper, and allow multiple squad members to take them. Could possibly have improved Hexrifles for Haemonculi (so that they're useful on their own).
- Make Liquifier Guns worth a damn (I'm seeing a pattern here...)

The other thing I'm thinking is that our poison should be able to damage vehicles in some way. Maybe something like the Necron gauss rule - where we can always glance them on 6s, or even like the AV-draining ability their scarabs used to have. I just feel that our poison should corrode armour - not plink uselessly off it. Especially in an edition when an army can consist entirely of vehicles.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 14:26

The Shredder wrote:
I feel that Wracks should be troops. For one, that would make it so that they're no longer competing with Grotesques, and for two it would mean that the 3 main aspects (Coven, Wyches and Kabalites) of our army are all represented in our troops.

After that, I'm not sure. Though I do like the idea of having them each start with a pistol and Wrack Weapon.

Anyway, some thoughts:

- Possibly let Acothysts (and Haemonculi) take Ossefactors.
- Make Hexrifles cheaper, and allow multiple squad members to take them. Could possibly have improved Hexrifles for Haemonculi (so that they're useful on their own).
- Make Liquifier Guns worth a damn (I'm seeing a pattern here...)

The other thing I'm thinking is that our poison should be able to damage vehicles in some way. Maybe something like the Necron gauss rule - where we can always glance them on 6s, or even like the AV-draining ability their scarabs used to have. I just feel that our poison should corrode armour - not plink uselessly off it. Especially in an edition when an army can consist entirely of vehicles.

Providing Ossefactors to both Haemonculi and Acothysts seems not only reasonable but acceptable in terms of lore. And your concept about the Wracks representing the Coven as a Troop choice as the Wyches and Kabelites do is very logical as well; so from that point of view I fully agree!

As far as the poison goes, it seems feasible; especially for something like the Liquifier Gun which corrodes armour and it would make poisoned weapons useful when facing a multitude of tanks effectively reducing the need for Wracks to be able to wield Haywire Blasters and have this remain unique to the Talos.

That being said, the Coven would then still have no viable answer to flyers and I think Wracks with Wings and something similar to the Swooping Hawk "Intercept" rule would be the only acceptable option from a lore point of view, but then they'd still need something that is truly dedicated towards taking out vehicles and you'd be back at needing something like Haywire Blasters.


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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 15:15

With regard to flyers, I'd suggest adding Scourges to the Covens and giving them some sort of anti-flier ability. Probably not as OP as what Swooping Hawks get, but maybe something along those lines. Or, perhaps the option to gain Skyfire if they fly a certain distance.

That being said, I personally don't think fliers belong in 40k outside of apocalypse.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 15:21

The Shredder wrote:
With regard to flyers, I'd suggest adding Scourges to the Covens and giving them some sort of anti-flier ability. Probably not as OP as what Swooping Hawks get, but maybe something along those lines.  Or, perhaps the option to gain Skyfire if they fly a certain distance.

That being said, I personally don't think fliers belong in 40k outside of apocalypse.

Wouldn't you think it cooler to have Wracks with those bat-wings some of the Scourges have as well?

The Scourge, even though they are creations of the Haemonculi, don't particulary hold loyalty to them. The Wracks, Grotesques, Talos and Cronos all are servants/guards and they all have this horror look and feel to them; something the Scourge do not, well not as much as those units from the Coven supplement.

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 16:01

omkara wrote:

Wouldn't you think it cooler to have Wracks with those bat-wings some of the Scourges have as well?

It just seems a bit... redundant to me.

omkara wrote:

The Scourge, even though they are creations of the Haemonculi, don't particulary hold loyalty to them. The Wracks, Grotesques, Talos and Cronos all are servants/guards and they all have this horror look and feel to them; something the Scourge do not, well not as much as those units from the Coven supplement.


I do get what you mean. But, I think it would be better to just have some loyal scourges, rather than creating a unit that just apes an existing one.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 16:19

You could fix them with giving them the option for two special weapons.

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 16:41

The Shredder wrote:
omkara wrote:

Wouldn't you think it cooler to have Wracks with those bat-wings some of the Scourges have as well?

It just seems a bit... redundant to me.

omkara wrote:

The Scourge, even though they are creations of the Haemonculi, don't particulary hold loyalty to them. The Wracks, Grotesques, Talos and Cronos all are servants/guards and they all have this horror look and feel to them; something the Scourge do not, well not as much as those units from the Coven supplement.


I do get what you mean. But, I think it would be better to just have some loyal scourges, rather than creating a unit that just apes an existing one.

True that, at least from a Games Workshop point of view. They wouldn't be arsed to add wings to the Wrack sprue, but adding Scourges to the equation would increase the Coven's survive ability. According to the lore from the DE Codex, these Scourges are paid for their services so I guess it wouldn't be ridiculous for Haemonculi to hire them when needed.

Still that would Wracks as they are now in need of some buffing. On top of your suggestions and others regarding their guns I still think they really need that 2nd Wound, if only to be able to make use of It Will Not Die and Eternal Warrior from the Power From Pain table.

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 16:56

I'm not sure about 2 wounds - especially since it would almost certainly require a price increase.

Actually, it would be more accurate to say that I wouldn't want it done because of the PfP table.

I think the current PfP is one of the worst things about the current book, and is in dire need of replacement with something closer to Blood Points or the Tally of Pestilence. So, I'd rather have that done first and then think about giving Wracks a second wound.

That's just me though.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 17:06

The Shredder wrote:
I'm not sure about 2 wounds - especially since it would almost certainly require a price increase.

Actually, it would be more accurate to say that I wouldn't want it done because of the PfP table.

I think the current PfP is one of the worst things about the current book, and is in dire need of replacement with something closer to Blood Points or the Tally of Pestilence. So, I'd rather have that done first and then think about giving Wracks a second wound.

That's just me though.

Fair point again. It's all theory crafting in the end, considering this new DE codex supplement was released about half a year ago right? GW renews codices about once per year? Or we're probably stuck with these rules for the coming years or something?

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 17:08

The problem Wracks have, and and one they share with Hellions and Wyches, is that they don't have a well-defined role.  Almost every other unit in our codex one can point to and say "X does Y in my army list."  For example, Grots kill/tarpit stuff in CC.  Reavers harass stuff in CC and zoom around being a nuisance/grabbing objectives, thus they have to be dealt with.  Scourges and Ravagers are our anti-tank.  Warriors secure objectives and provide extra dakka.  Talos are decent shooting platforms that punch pretty much anything to death.   And so on.  I have no idea what role Wracks and the other units are supposed to fill.  If Wracks and Hellions could be troops again, then they might at least have a purpose (sort of), in Coven or Wych Cult themed lists, but as it is, they don't provide anything that isn't done better and more cost effectively elsewhere in our codex.  In summation, these units represent the Dark Eldar to the rest of our codex's Eldar.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 17:21

omkara wrote:

Fair point again. It's all theory crafting in the end, considering this new DE codex supplement was released about half a year ago right? GW renews codices about once per year? Or we're probably stuck with these rules for the coming years or something?

The other thing is that GW haven't actually been releasing new supplements - possibly they've dropped that altogether.

So, it might be that Covens are either combined with DE again, or just abandoned entirely.


sweetbacon wrote:
The problem Wracks have, and and one they share with Hellions and Wyches, is that they don't have a well-defined role.  Almost every other unit in our codex one can point to and say "X does Y in my army list."  For example, Grots kill/tarpit stuff in CC.  Reavers harass stuff in CC and zoom around being a nuisance/grabbing objectives, thus they have to be dealt with.  Scourges and Ravagers are our anti-tank.  Warriors secure objectives and provide extra dakka.  Talos are decent shooting platforms that punch pretty much anything to death.   And so on.  I have no idea what role Wracks and the other units are supposed to fill.  If Wracks and Hellions could be troops again, then they might at least have a purpose (sort of), in Coven or Wych Cult themed lists, but as it is, they don't provide anything that isn't done better and more cost effectively elsewhere in our codex.  In summation, these units represent the Dark Eldar to the rest of our codex's Eldar.

Pretty much, yeah. I think damage output (melee or shooting) is a real problem for them.

in fact, I think GW could do with putting the poison rules back to how they were in 6th. Let me try and illustrate my problem with them. Compare Wracks/Haemonculi with Grotesques against MEQ:

Wracks (S3) vs MEQ - 1/2 chance to wound
Wracks with FC (S4) vs MEQ - 1/2 chance to wound
Grotesques (S5) vs MEQ - 8/9 chance to wound
Grotesques with FC (S6) - 35/36 chance to wound

It just seems silly that going from S3 to S4 provides no benefit whatsoever, but going from S4 to S5 almost doubles your chance to wound. If you instead got rerolls from having strength greater than or equal to your target's toughness, you'd instead go from 1/2 (S3) to 3/4 (S4) to 8/9 (S5). This seems like a much smoother and more logical progression.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 17:30

@Shredder tally of pestilence? Did a Nurgle Deamonkin Codex arrive and I didn't see it??

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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 17:46

The Shredder wrote:
omkara wrote:

Fair point again. It's all theory crafting in the end, considering this new DE codex supplement was released about half a year ago right? GW renews codices about once per year? Or we're probably stuck with these rules for the coming years or something?

The other thing is that GW haven't actually been releasing new supplements - possibly they've dropped that altogether.

So, it might be that Covens are either combined with DE again, or just abandoned entirely.

If we are honest, everything that has been in the Coven book could have easily been in the main codex as well.

Yeah, you can clearly see a break with the release of Necrons.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Tue Jun 23 2015, 18:09

The Strange Dark One wrote:

If we are honest, everything that has been in the Coven book could have easily been in the main codex as well.

Oh, certainly. The question is whether they'll take the trouble to put it there next time. Razz

CptMetal wrote:
@Shredder tally of pestilence? Did a Nurgle Deamonkin Codex arrive and I didn't see it??

Not to my knowledge.

It's possible I'm thinking of the Fantasy tally of pestilence, if there isn't one in the Chaos Daemons book.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Wed Jun 24 2015, 18:57

sweetbacon wrote:
The problem Wracks have, and and one they share with Hellions and Wyches, is that they don't have a well-defined role.  Almost every other unit in our codex one can point to and say "X does Y in my army list."  For example, Grots kill/tarpit stuff in CC.  Reavers harass stuff in CC and zoom around being a nuisance/grabbing objectives, thus they have to be dealt with.  Scourges and Ravagers are our anti-tank.  Warriors secure objectives and provide extra dakka.  Talos are decent shooting platforms that punch pretty much anything to death.   And so on.  I have no idea what role Wracks and the other units are supposed to fill.  If Wracks and Hellions could be troops again, then they might at least have a purpose (sort of), in Coven or Wych Cult themed lists, but as it is, they don't provide anything that isn't done better and more cost effectively elsewhere in our codex.  In summation, these units represent the Dark Eldar to the rest of our codex's Eldar.

After reading this I started brainstorming the possible roles that Wracks, Wyches and Hellions could fill if they were changed slightly and honestly I couldn't come up with anything unless I gave the unit a major change. Hellions always end up playing like crappier reavers and Wyches will only be viable if you buffed there weapons, gave them dodge save in overwatch, WS to 5 and etc. Wracks seemed to be the only unit with any promise but the only role I could envision for them was to throw 5/10 in a venom/raider and then disembark them on an objective. However, they still wouldn't excell in this role and be mediocre at best.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Wed Jun 24 2015, 19:24

I think Hellions would be greatly improved by being moved to Troops - so that they're not competing with Reavers.

After that, they suffer from the same thing all our wych units suffer from - they have the durability of wet paper bags, and the offensive capabilities of wet paper bags. The former might be acceptable, but the latter cripples them utterly. Put simply, they need a lot more bite. A single S4 attack on such a fragile unit is just pitiful. Maybe if they had Rending or something, though even then 1 attack for a melee unit is pretty poor. And, if they're supposed to be a shooting unit... where are their options for special guns?


With regard to Wracks, perhaps (unlike our other Coven units) they should have a much greater focus on shooting? I'd suggest leaving them their Wrack weapons (so that they're at least competent in melee), but giving them guns. Perhaps Shardcarbines (or something along those lines) for the basic members and the option of Ossefactors for 1/5 of them, along with the Acothyst.

That's presuming they move to troops as well. If they stay as Elites, I expect to be able to take *at least* 4 Ossefactors, Hexrifles and/or Liquifier Guns in a 5-man squad.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Thu Jun 25 2015, 09:41

The scalpel squad is pretty good as it is. It is pretty cheap, unlocks null deployment, gives you more venoms, and a potential free victory point. If they don't die right away, a fun way to extend their usefulness is to charge them into a shooty unit to eat the overwatch. If they survive, they make sure that I get to inconvenience the lesser races with wet paper bags to the face at initiative with other units. This can be done without the scalpel as well of course. Ten guys in a raider can multicharge a gunline or hold up something nasty long enought for your own nasties to get there.
To be better in this role, I would like to see wracks with one more wound per model. Maybe also a bonus hull point or some other defensive buff to the dedicated transport they are in to reflect that they have covered it in flayed dudes or some other high art form.
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PostSubject: Re: How to fix Wracks?    Thu Jun 25 2015, 10:11

Scrz wrote:
Maybe also a bonus hull point or some other defensive buff to the dedicated transport they are in to reflect that they have covered it in flayed dudes or some other high art form.

I like your thinking Very Happy

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