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 Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?

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Erikjust
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PostSubject: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 06:11

Question if you took the Covens Grotesqueri and the choice came between a normal Haemonculus at 140 points vs Urien Rakarth.
Is one better then the other or are they equally great and their use is very situational?

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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 08:29

Depends entirely on how you plan on running the units and what else is in your army

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Erikjust
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 09:15

Haemonculus Covern
Grotesquerie 610
Urien Rakarth 140
4x Grotesques, Aberration with Agoniser 175
4x Grotesques, Aberration with Agoniser 175
Raider, Dark Lance 60
Raider, Dark Lance 60

Dark Artisan 385
Haemonculus, Webway Portal, Sindriq´s Sump, Stinger Pistol, Scissorhand 130
Talos, Ichor Injector 125
Cronos, Spirit Prope 130

Scalpel Squadron 260
5x Wracks, Ossefactor 65
5x Wrecks, Ossefactor 65
Venom, Splinter Cannon 65
Venom, Splinter Cannon 65

1255

Eldar 722

HQ 140
Spiritseer 70
Spiritseer 70

Troops 102
Windriders 51
Windriders 51

Wraithconstruct 480
Hemlock Wraithfigther 185
Wraithknight 295


1977

The spiritseers would join Urien and give bonus´s to the Grotesques.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 09:31

Rakarth is much tougher (T5, 4+ FNP, IWND and a 4++ save). He also comes with an Ichor Injector but that's much less useful than the Talos version due to lack of AP2.

Personally, I don't think he's worth 2 Haemonculi, although his 12" radius Master of Pain ability can be useful if you're running MSU.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 09:55

That's an interesting list. I like it!

I like the buffing and resilience urien brings to your list.

The real question for me is, what would you get with the extra points it you replaced urien with a normal heamy?... another unit of windriders would be awesome of you play a lot of maelstrom.

You have a lot of reserves and with the scalpel, could do a complete null deployment. How do you usually deploy your army?
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Erikjust
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 10:08

I could try and do two stripped down Haemonculus that both have a WWP.
And try and deploy both Raiders close to an enemy in turn two and get into close combat.
At the same time throw in Dark Artisan nearby with the warlords being dark artisan this would give further bonus to the Grotesques.

Haven´t really played much mostly because i stuck to fantasy for a while and mostly because i wanted to have a fully painted army before playing.........Unfortunately when each miniature takes around 4 to 5 days if not a week or 2 to paint (depending on the size and level of details) i usually run through a couple of codex´s before i am even ready to play.
Which is mainly why i now try and magnitize in order to at least get something that can be put on the table top.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 12:14

Personally, I prefer a regular haemonculus with a scissorhand and an option on a webway portal.

Urien Rakarth just doesnt bring enough to the table for me.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 12:38

I think it depends what you want out of him.

- Urien is tougher, but if he's your warlord then you're stuck with a garbage warlord trait.
- Urien is stuck with his weapons, which you may or may not like. Personally, I find his Ichor Injector about as useful as waiting for my enemies to die of old age, but your mileage may vary.
- Urien can't take a WWP, but obviously this only matters if you want one.
- Urien can't take the Sump (I like this on my Grotesque Haemonculus in case they gain Fleet)
- Urien can't take any ranged weapons (admittedly this is like saying 'he can't have leprosy', but personal taste and all that. Wink)
- Urien's bubble may or may not be useful. Since your list has few DE units (and one of them already has a Haemonculus), I can't see it being a great benefit.

Personally, I find him lacklustre. His AoE buff can potentially be decent, but more often I just don't have anything nearby to benefit from it. Also, I just really dislike that if I take him as my warlord I'm stuck with a worthless warlord trait. Why couldn't he have a trait from the bloody Coven book?

That being said, I feel I should mention that standard Haemonculi aren't exactly good-value themselves. They're just less of a drain on your points than Urien.
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Erikjust
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 14:27

So in other words, he is a really cool model (though a bit of a pain in the ass to assemble and paint), but we will never see him in a professional army/ETC level that is meant to win tournaments?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 14:53

Pretty much, yeah.

I think if you wanted to use him competitively, you'd have to really build your list around him - so that you're milking his aura for all that it's worth. But, even then I'm not sure.

I think part of the problem is that our PfP chart works like clockwork - there's no longer any challenge in getting it, and many of the rewards are of dubious worth. The bonuses provided by Urien/Haemonculi are dubious because they're only giving you what you'd get anyway a turn later. e.g. Did you need to make a morale test on turn 1? If not, then the bonus was useless. Did you need Fearless on turn 2? If not, the bonus was useless. etc.
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doctorz
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 18:38

I actually think urien is pretty good. Obviously if you want a webway portal or just a cheap HQ you could do better. In this list though I think he has value
If you start adding items to a haemonculus the can get pretty close to his points in a hurry and at that point he's probably just better.

If you are looking for points I'd consider taking the agonizers off of the grot units. I'm not sure its worth 50 points just to make a couple guys AP 3.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 19:01

@doctorz wrote:

If you start adding items to a haemonculus the can get pretty close to his points in a hurry and at that point he's probably just better.

That's the thing though - most of the things you can add to a Haemonculus aren't worth it either. Razz

(Especially when you add so much that he starts to approach Urien's cost.)
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 19:13

I would pick him probably from the main codex as the coven supplement does not add anything for him.

Furious Charge, Fearless and Rage against Eternal Warrior and Zealot, where he can still get Zealot when joining a coven unit.
The problem I have with eternal warrior is that it comes pretty laten and by this time all major threats are either dead or you lost anyways.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 19:21

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
I would pick him probably from the main codex as the coven supplement does not add anything for him.

Is this Urien or a normal Haemonculus?

Either way, I'd argue that the Coven one is better.

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Furious Charge, Fearless and Rage against Eternal Warrior and Zealot, where he can still get Zealot when joining a coven unit.

Two things:

1) Coven also gets Fearless, but on turn 1. And, this is one of the main reasons I's choose coven - as it means you're immune to Pinning and Morale (and Fear... anyone care?) from the start of the game.

2) Furious charge is helping you... how exactly? In terms of Urien, he already has Fleshbane so it's not going to do a damn thing for him. Even with a normal Haemonculus, he'll generally have a poisoned weapon of some kind if he's going anywhere near combat. And, FC only gets you to S4 - not enough to get rerolls against anything worthwhile.

3) Rage is good for squads, but garbage on a character. Especially compared to Zealot - which incidentally, you get a turn earlier than Rage.

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

The problem I have with eternal warrior is that it comes pretty laten and by this time all major threats are either dead or you lost anyways.

This I do agree with. It's occasionally been useful, but most often the game is already over one way or another by the time it rolls round.

The trouble is though, the standard PFP table offers nothing better. And, in the early game, it offers nothing whatsoever.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 20:32

I've tried Urien a couple of times. The only thing he re really brings to the table is durability. T5 with a 4++/4++ FNP with IWND is actually pretty hardy by DE standards. But it's not worth 140 points, because his offense is pretty much garbage. Not having the ability to take any other gear really hurts him. After the Orbs of Despair, his shooting weapon has the most baffling stat line in the whole codex. In a world where Skiitari three shot plasma rifles, D weapon templates, and Grav Cannons exist, apparently a Str 3 AP3 gun with a 12 inch range would be OP if it gets to fire more than once per game. Overall, he's fun to take if you need something to tarpit a beatstick CC character in a challenge, while his Grots kill the rest of the squad, but aside from that, he's not worth his cost.
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 21:50

I've also tried Urien several times, but none of my experience could find his superiority to a barebone haemonculus. At least he looks so cool, so I usually ask my friends to allow him as a proxy of haemonculus Wink And don't get me wrong - I also have three haemonculi models though.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 21:58

Quote :
1) Coven also gets Fearless, but on turn 1. And, this is one of the main reasons I's choose coven - as it means you're immune to Pinning and Morale (and Fear... anyone care?) from the start of the game.

As I suggested putting him into a coven unit (that is the second part of the grotesquerie for example) he wil be fearless on round 2 anyways.
Quote :


2) Furious charge is helping you... how exactly? In terms of Urien, he already has Fleshbane so it's not going to do a damn thing for him. Even with a normal Haemonculus, he'll generally have a poisoned weapon of some kind if he's going anywhere near combat. And, FC only gets you to S4 - not enough to get rerolls against anything worthwhile.

This is minor but it allows him to add in his attacks on vehicles (most backs are AV10) and while it is not terribly useful, it is still better than IWND... again.

Quote :
3) Rage is good for squads, but garbage on a character. Especially compared to Zealot - which incidentally, you get a turn earlier than Rage.

See [1]. As suggested earlier the squad will get Zealot which gives him both benefits. And while he is still no fighting machine in this hypothetical scenario he would end up with 6 rerollable attacks that wound on 2+ (which makes him on par with a charching grot rolling max for his rampage)

As I said this is pure theory as he is way to expensive and doesn't add a lot.
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 22:08

I love the idea of mixing two different PfP effects, as Charondyr suggested. Though, I prefer a full-kitted succubus to a haemy when running with grots.

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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 22:18

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

As I suggested putting him into a coven unit (that is the second part of the grotesquerie for example) he wil be fearless on round 2 anyways.

So then, why does he need Fearless from DE PfP?

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

This is minor but it allows him to add in his attacks on vehicles (most backs are AV10) and while it is not terribly useful, it is still better than IWND... again.

Better than IWND, but not Zealot.

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

See [1]. As suggested earlier the squad will get Zealot which gives him both benefits. And while he is still no fighting machine in this hypothetical scenario he would end up with 6 rerollable attacks that wound on 2+ (which makes him on par with a charching grot rolling max for his rampage)

The thing is though, Urien is a tank - not a beater. And, with that in mind, I'd rather have EW.

I get what you mean about joining him to a Coven unit, but I'd rather have the option to join him to a non-coven unit and retain the benefits. Especially when the alternative benefits are so pitiful.

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

As I said this is pure theory as he is way to expensive and doesn't add a lot.

Apropos of nothing, but I feel Urien is basically what a standard Haemonculus *should* be. Though, obviously without his default gear and silly price tag.

@sweetbacon wrote:
After the Orbs of Despair, his shooting weapon has the most baffling stat line in the whole codex.  In a world where Skiitari three shot plasma rifles, D weapon templates, and Grav Cannons exist, apparently a Str 3 AP3 gun with a 12 inch range would be OP if it gets to fire more than once per game.

Yeah, I don't even know why they bothered adding it. It's just such a pathetic weapon, and doesn't appear to have any relation to his fluff. I'd wish they'd dropped it and instead left him the ability to buff Grotesques or something.
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 22:44

If he had his old ability to add +1 Str to all Grotesque units, then I think he would actually be useful, as with Str 6 and possibly Str 7 from either Furious Charge or Latest Experiment table, Grots would truly be a decent jack of all trades unit due to their ability to take on Imperial Knights and Dreadnoughts.
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 22:58

Agreed.

I think that if you take him with the Grotesquerie formation, you should be able to pick which trait they get - instead of rolling a d6.
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PostSubject: Re: Urien Rakarth vs a normal Haemonculus which is better in a grotesqueri?    Mon Jun 22 2015, 23:05

I like that idea. Would make him almost worth the points, as picking the trait would make the Grots even better and would allow you to pick the most beneficial one based on the army you're facing. T6 Grots would be a decent (not great) way to slow down a non-D Sword Wraith Knight since it's not auto killing a grot each time it hits. Against Tau, the 4+ FNP might be more useful. Definitely would fit Urien's fluff better than what he currently does.
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