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 New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 11:22

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lawlskees
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 20:24

Honestly guys, I like the looks of all the new changes, because it means we will be getting some seriously mean crap in the near future. GW is pumping out these new codices faster then I can afford to collect them. I forsee an Eldar: Commorragh codex.... hopefully in the next 6-10 months. Also, Vect is suppose to make a return. A lot of people complain about our codex but I've had an almost perfect win ratio with my DE, and I play with very competitive people. DA needed the love, they could only run 1-2 things and be somewhat competitive. For the people still argueing fluff, When has GW ever gave two Sh*ts about fluff? Roll with the punches or quit buying their models.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 21:25

@lawlskees wrote:
Honestly guys, I like the looks of all the new changes, because it means we will be getting some seriously mean crap in the near future. GW is pumping out these new codices faster then I can afford to collect them. I forsee an Eldar: Commorragh codex.... hopefully in the next 6-10 months. Also, Vect is suppose to make a return. A lot of people complain about our codex but I've had an almost perfect win ratio with my DE, and I play with very competitive people. DA needed the love, they could only run 1-2 things and be somewhat competitive. For the people still argueing fluff, When has GW ever gave two Sh*ts about fluff? Roll with the punches or quit buying their models.

I wish I could be as optimistic as you.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 21:25

Not a chance in hell of an Eldar: Commarragh codex. We very well could be getting a LoW out of the DoD, and maybe a supplement liek Covens, but I highly doubt we'll see anything bigger than that.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 22:05

My personal take on this is that GW is releasing all three Eldar armies as a single huge product - I mean, all of them have useful parts and the strongest is the Craftworlders, who are on par in sales with Space Marines, so, from a bussiness point of view, need to be the most powerful in the group.
That also makes updating the other Codexes harder - while sure, fluffy lists are fun and it would be awesome to field a pure DE competetive list, it is a problematic thing - imagine if DE were stronger, on par with, not even Craftworlds, but for example Tau. Imagine mixing it with the Craftworld stuff - you get undilluted buttrape train to Paintown and the spiral of "OP, OP!" grows even bigger, for a good reason. Already, a Craftworld with support from Raiders, WWP and stuff can be a bitch to deal with.
It's very easy to be bitter over all this, but you also have to consider the competetive scene here - if we were a standalone army, like the Necrons, then I would not say a word in GeeDubs defense, but we are not, so while I don't like that, I understand why our Codex is not on par with others.

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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 22:14

The thing is Gw is a model company first adn foremost. And wyches don't move off shelves despite having amazingly dynamic poses. With GW being all about giving unused units purpose lately since it lets them sell more models, it also makes financial sense for them to buff us, since even taking buffed wyches in a mixed eldar army would still be a trade-off against the current powerful CWE options. And with the leaks that Vect/DoD model exists/was in development, It seems doubtful that they'd junk an opportunity to basically sell a tarantulus to non-FW folks, especially when competitively in most circumstances a WK would still be more efficient.

TL;DR: GW makes money off models, things like giving our Hq's bikes, making hellions troops, and buffing wyches ability to reach CC and inflict damage, can be accomplished without actually making them better options then the CW and Harlequin options, thereby selling more models, AND maintaining competitive status quo.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 22:21

Quote :
TL;DR: GW makes money off models, things like giving our Hq's bikes, making hellions troops, and buffing wyches ability to reach CC and inflict damage, can be accomplished without actually making them better options then the CW and Harlequin options, thereby selling more models, AND maintaining competitive status quo.

Or they can boost a Space Marine army, of which selling they get waaay more money, as only a fraction of that number buys/would buy DE models, especially since even if Wyches are buffed, all Eldar armies have way better CC options. It sucks from our, DE fans, point of view. But it gets them money. Bussiness is bussiness, no two ways about it.

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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 23:14

You are acting like they can only give good rules to one army...

"So we have this magic pen that makes an codex op but we can only use it once so we boost our already best selling army"

Also if doesn't even make finacial sense. Space Marines fly off the shelves because they are GWs frontline. Featured in almost all Art and Books. Walking testosterone mountains. They even sold well when they had 2nd or 3rd edition rules.

And now imagine DE would be on par or even better than CWE. See that wyches that were sitting on the shelf for a year? Suddenly its gone. The Eldar crowd at tournaments suddenly BUY DE stuff.

A badly written codex costs as much money to create as a good written one.
But only the good written one will get people who are in power levels and not background into buying stuff.

It does not make any economic sense to release a boring and bland codex with a low powerlevel.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 23:45

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
You are acting like they can only give good rules to one army...

"So we have this magic pen that makes an codex op but we can only use it once so we boost our already best selling army"

Also if doesn't even make finacial sense. Space Marines fly off the shelves because they are GWs frontline. Featured in almost all Art and Books. Walking testosterone mountains. They even sold well when they had 2nd or 3rd edition rules.

And now imagine DE would be on par or even better than CWE. See that wyches that were sitting on the shelf for a year? Suddenly its gone. The Eldar crowd at tournaments suddenly BUY DE stuff.

A badly written codex costs as much money to create as a good written one.
But only the good written one will get people who are in power levels and not background into buying stuff.

It does not make any economic sense to release a boring and bland codex with a low powerlevel.

I agree wholeheartedly. A good example of how good rules boost sales is what GW did to Necron Tomb Blades. They made them better stat and gear wise, but more importantly they made them a necessary component of the Decurion, which is where Necrons get their true power from. It would be easy for GW to do something similar for Wyches or Hellions which would lead to a dramatic spike in model sales for this MODEL company. I can only conclude that they don't care about the added revenue releasing a dataslate in WD or boosting some Wych abilities via FAQ might bring in. Which leads me to a secondary conclusion that, for whatever reason, there are certain armies that GW's design team just doesn't think should be able to compete with the Eldar, Space Marines, and Necrons of the world. Put simply, somebody or somebodies at GW HQ just doesn't seem to care whether certain armies sale that many models.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 23:53

@lawlskees wrote:
Honestly guys, I like the looks of all the new changes, because it means we will be getting some seriously mean crap in the near future. GW is pumping out these new codices faster then I can afford to collect them. I forsee an Eldar: Commorragh codex.... hopefully in the next 6-10 months. Also, Vect is suppose to make a return. A lot of people complain about our codex but I've had an almost perfect win ratio with my DE, and I play with very competitive people. DA needed the love, they could only run 1-2 things and be somewhat competitive. For the people still argueing fluff, When has GW ever gave two Sh*ts about fluff? Roll with the punches or quit buying their models.

Well this would be a first for GW. You might not be aware but the current Dark Eldar Codex is a 7th Edition release. I can see them releasing additional Supplements to our book boosting units that way, but to be optimistic about them releasing a second 7th edition codex within in the same edition seems like a pipe dream.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jun 26 2015, 07:41

@The Shredder wrote:
Surely you're forgetting all the amazing Ignores Cover weapons GW gave us in our book, like... um... well there's the... um... ah, but let's not forget the trusty old... uh...

I'll get back to you.

How about some Medusae Ignore Cover AP3 goodness? For every 5+ you roll that's one less bike. Statistically 3 Medusae will kill every bike underneath a flamer template. Suddenly my Dark Artisan which he shoots to pieces with regularity was faaaaar down my Ravenwing buddy's threat table.

Apart from that, you know what I like about my Dark Eldar? I don't feel pigeon-holed into 2 or 3 good unit choices. I don't even want to have OP units in my army list. I gave Tyranids a try for a few months and slapping twin-linked Devourers on everything that can carry them is awfully boring! With my deliciously wicked fast and hard hitting army I can bring Mandrakes, Reavers, Ravagers, Venoms, Grots, Scourges, a few useful formations... The only units that are really crap are Wyches and Hellions, (and I don't like those models anyway). Sure, our HQs aren't super, and I don't even look at our special characters. But that's OK. I'd rather have what I got now and play competitive games than spam scatbikes and wraithguard and win all the time until nobody likes to play my army anymore.

That said, those DA/Ravenwing buffs sure would fit nicely into our codex Smile

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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jun 26 2015, 08:31

Also the dark angel book has some big mistakes in it by GW. For example the ravenwing detachment lets you take up to three HQs, one of the perks is that you can re-roll you warlord trait. Sounds good right finally no need to take Sammael. But wait! The detachment also says you can only take units with the ravenwing special rule. Guess who's the only character with that special rule? Sammael! So why are there three HQ slots? Why does the formation let you re-roll the warlord trait if Sammael has a preset warlord trait? Surely there must be a way to grant a character ravenwing special rule?! Nope there isn't!

The ravenwing detachment also has a special rule saying that you either have to start the whole detachment on the board or start them in reserve (and they automatically come in turn 2). So guess what if you take a flyer you have to start it in reserve, meaning as a result you have to start your whole detachment in reserve. Yay for turn one auto-lose unless you bring another detachment/formation.

Classic complete oversights by GW! Seriously they don't even proof read these things, it takes your average 40k player a quick read of the codex to find those stinkers.

I guess what I'm getting at is that all things considered our codex at least seems to have been proof read, despite the fact that it is somewhat lacking in punch.

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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jun 26 2015, 09:40

@Mushkilla wrote:
I guess what I'm getting at is that all things considered our codex at least seems to have been proof read, despite the fact that it is somewhat lacking in punch.

Yep, they checked it very thoroughly to make sure they had removed all unique or flavorful rules, units without models, usefulness for Wyches and units that could compete, point for point, with any of the more recent codexes. Mad

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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jun 26 2015, 10:03

@BlackCadian wrote:

How about some Medusae Ignore Cover AP3 goodness? For every 5+ you roll that's one less bike.

Because killing on 5+ is just so amazing, right?

@BlackCadian wrote:

Apart from that, you know what I like about my Dark Eldar? I don't feel pigeon-holed into 2 or 3 good unit choices.

Really?

I certainly feel pigeon-holed into 2-3 good unit choices. Not least because our book only has about 3 good unit choices.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jun 26 2015, 10:20

@The Shredder wrote:
@BlackCadian wrote:

How about some Medusae Ignore Cover AP3 goodness? For every 5+ you roll that's one less bike.

Because killing on 5+ is just so amazing, right?

Well, I just thought I'd mention it since you referenced the liquefier (as a joke), but didn't mention the Medusae.

And with Bikes being 27pts each, and Black Knights 40+ (which die just as easily), I guess they're not supposed to die THAT easy. A single 5+ roll isn't so bad considering other weapons have to go through a jink or 3+ armor. How many ignore cover weapons with AP3 are there? I genuinely don't know, but I can't think of any others from the top of my head.

[quote="The Shredder"]
@BlackCadian wrote:

@BlackCadian wrote:

Apart from that, you know what I like about my Dark Eldar? I don't feel pigeon-holed into 2 or 3 good unit choices.

Really?

I certainly feel pigeon-holed into 2-3 good unit choices. Not least because our book only has about 3 good unit choices.

I guess it always depends on how competitive you really want to play. If you really only want to play our very best units, sure, that's probably only 3. But it's not like the rest are useless or unplayable, far from it, imho.


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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jun 26 2015, 10:31

@BlackCadian wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@BlackCadian wrote:

How about some Medusae Ignore Cover AP3 goodness? For every 5+ you roll that's one less bike.

Because killing on 5+ is just so amazing, right?

Well, I just thought I'd mention it since you referenced the liquefier (as a joke), but didn't mention the Medusae.

And with Bikes being 27pts each, and Black Knights 40+ (which die just as easily), I guess they're not supposed to die THAT easy. A single 5+ roll isn't so bad considering other weapons have to go through a jink or 3+ armor. How many ignore cover weapons with AP3 are there? I genuinely don't know, but I can't think of any others from the top of my head.

@The Shredder wrote:
@BlackCadian wrote:

@BlackCadian wrote:

Apart from that, you know what I like about my Dark Eldar? I don't feel pigeon-holed into 2 or 3 good unit choices.

Really?

I certainly feel pigeon-holed into 2-3 good unit choices. Not least because our book only has about 3 good unit choices.

I guess it always depends on how competitive you really want to play. If you really only want to play our very best units, sure, that's probably only 3. But it's not like the rest are useless or unplayable, far from it, imho.



Medusae are completely unviable solution. You are talking about taking 320 points worth of models to kill 2 bikes ??? Really? 6 medusae, 1 archon with wwp in a raider btw. No other way you are going to get in range of bikers.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jun 26 2015, 10:47

Not sure where the 320 comes from - if you only want to kill 2 bikes you can just buy a Venom, 4 Medusae and the WWP Archon which kills 3 least 3 bikes plus whatever the Venom puts out. That's 265pts.

But I can see we're not getting any further here, and admittedly, your experience playing DE most likely far exceeds mine (both yours and Shredders'), so I'll take your word for it.

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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jun 26 2015, 11:29

@BlackCadian wrote:

Well, I just thought I'd mention it since you referenced the liquefier (as a joke), but didn't mention the Medusae.

And with Bikes being 27pts each, and Black Knights 40+ (which die just as easily), I guess they're not supposed to die THAT easy. A single 5+ roll isn't so bad considering other weapons have to go through a jink or 3+ armor. How many ignore cover weapons with AP3 are there? I genuinely don't know, but I can't think of any others from the top of my head.

But that's the thing - we're talking about 5+ on a unit that's the closest thing we have to a hard-counter (and still really inefficient).

Our other weapons are going to be in for a much worse time.

@BlackCadian wrote:

And with Bikes being 27pts each, and Black Knights 40+ (which die just as easily), I guess they're not supposed to die THAT easy. A single 5+ roll isn't so bad considering other weapons have to go through a jink or 3+ armor. How many ignore cover weapons with AP3 are there? I genuinely don't know, but I can't think of any others from the top of my head.

The Helldrake has a S6 AP3 one
One of the Land Raiders has IIRC 2 of those
IG have an order that gives Ignores Cover to one of their infantry squads
Tau have markerlights
(both can pick weapons that are AP2-3)
Eldar have their Wraithguard nonsense
SMs have their S10 AP2 Ignores Cover apocalypse template
There are probably more, but those come to mind offhand

Really though, AP3 is less important than ignoring cover and reasonable-strength.

e.g. I think the IG Wyvern (4 TL S4 small blasts with Ignores Cover and Shred) would be very effective against them.

@BlackCadian wrote:

I guess it always depends on how competitive you really want to play. If you really only want to play our very best units, sure, that's probably only 3. But it's not like the rest are useless or unplayable, far from it, imho.

Well, I find it's more about how competitively my group plays. Most of them are using the newer (i.e. considerably stronger and better-written) books, and making strong armies with them.

So, I have the choice of using only our best units, or else constantly forging the dull and repetitive narrative of the Dark Eldar raiding party that did sod-all and got blown to bits for its trouble. Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jun 26 2015, 12:16

@The Shredder wrote:

@BlackCadian wrote:

I guess it always depends on how competitive you really want to play. If you really only want to play our very best units, sure, that's probably only 3. But it's not like the rest are useless or unplayable, far from it, imho.



Well, I find it's more about how competitively my group plays. Most of them are using the newer (i.e. considerably stronger and better-written) books, and making strong armies with them.

So, I have the choice of using only our best units, or else constantly forging the dull and repetitive narrative of the Dark Eldar raiding party that did sod-all and got blown to bits for its trouble. Evil or Very Mad  [/quote]

When you put it that way I can see your point and I wholeheartedly agree. In fact I'll be heading over to a friend in a couple of hours that'll field his new Eldar, and he's in love with scat-bikes. He's incapable of bringing tame lists, so like you said, either I end up doing sod-all (like last time), or I try to bring as much nastiness as I can dig out of our codex. Thankfully he's the only player like that in our group, and I don't mind too much unless I get stomped (like last time *sigh*). I'll be going either going MSU or Corpsethief Claw btw, haven't decided yet.

I find having a second army that you equally like playing helps a lot in cases like that. There's always going to be weaker and stronger codices unfortunately.

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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jun 26 2015, 16:24

@Mushkilla wrote:
Also the dark angel book has some big mistakes in it by GW. For example the ravenwing detachment lets you take up to three HQs, one of the perks is that you can re-roll you warlord trait. Sounds good right finally no need to take Sammael. But wait! The detachment also says you can only take units with the ravenwing special rule. Guess who's the only character with that special rule? Sammael! So why are there three HQ slots? Why does the formation let you re-roll the warlord trait if Sammael has a preset warlord trait? Surely there must be a way to grant a character ravenwing special rule?! Nope there isn't!

So equipping a character with a bike doesn't grant the ravenwing rule via the bike itself or something similar? When I initially heard about this I assumed that is what would happen.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jun 26 2015, 22:06

@Ubernoob1 wrote:
So equipping a character with a bike doesn't grant the ravenwing rule via the bike itself or something similar? When I initially heard about this I assumed that is what would happen.

Nope. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jun 26 2015, 22:12

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Ubernoob1 wrote:
So equipping a character with a bike doesn't grant the ravenwing rule via the bike itself or something similar? When I initially heard about this I assumed that is what would happen.

Nope. Sad

That's... odd then. But I suppose it's just another in the line of "maybe GW is planning for the future"? Like webway portals working from ongoing reserves, or the cover save from our detachment lasting for the first turn *and* every turn of night fighting.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jun 26 2015, 22:40

I'm sure it'll be fixed in the next faq.

So, just wait a year or two and you'll be set.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Sat Jun 27 2015, 05:00

@AvatarofWoe wrote:
@Raven Cowl wrote:
I have the solution. Lets run our Dark Eldar as Dark Angels.

Dark Eldar? You mean our Space Marines in Mark 7.5 Power Armor! With those boltguns that nobody ever sees other chapters use because they come from some backwater Forge World. And our custom land speeders...

Now I want to design an army around the concept of a Kabal convincing the Imperium that it is, in fact, a Space Marine Chapter.

Hey, Vect could do it. In his sleep. lol! The Administratum looks easy for the DE to fool. Actually, that'd be awesome.

I was mostly being sarcastic, seeing as some of what the Dark Angels are getting would be awesome for us. I don't begrudge the players, I just wish we had decent, flavorful options with a better external balance.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Sat Jun 27 2015, 11:07

we got the kabalite warrior, venom, razorwing and ravager. These are the things i mostly use in my competetive games as most others do. I dont want a powerdex just bring stuff closer to fluff to make most of our other stuff not suck so much.

Sooooo many things with every unit that just needs a light touch. A few special rules here and there and its done
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