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 New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!

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lelith
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 22 2015, 22:15

@1++ wrote:
Yep, confirms my theory that all the "newer" 7th ed dex's are being powered up, starting at Necron's - but where does that leave us I wonder - can we expect a new dataslate or formation that gives us some of the buffs we so desperately need (like assault from reserve, or some assault based battle focus type bonus) to be fastest in all the universe again.......

This reminds me of that, right after the release of our new codex, people anticipated GW would give us Vect supplement at least - which didn't occur. Oh, gee-dubs...why do you so hate us? Sad

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 22 2015, 22:19

One of my friends mentioned reading something about Vect having some plan to ascend to Godhood and replace Slaanesh. No idea if there's any truth in that.
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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 22 2015, 23:14

Be careful what you wish for, just think how you’d feel if DE got the full on craftworld treatment (granted it’s very unlikely) but how would you feel taking an autowin army that takes no skill and just destroys anything put in its way. I know this feeling it’s depressing, people start to think that you only win because of the army (not the list, or the tactics or knowing the strength and weakeness of your units).

How do I know? I’ll tell you.

I was a happy little eldar player, playing 4th edition codex in the 5th and 6th eddition and then they released the 6th ed codex. I thought all my Christmas had come at once. But after 3 months I was bored, I started to lose interest, I was more or less tabling people by end of turn 3 or 4 and it was dull. (BTW I only own two wave serpents, and six very old jetbikes) my list wasn’t anything special but it had all the tools I needed. To beat the boredum I thought sod it I’ll play Dark Eldar they seem interesting / challenging, I read the codex and scratched my head and thought how on earth can you win with this army.

I built a reasonable army and lost…. a lot, not getting tabled was like a victory to me and oh how sweet it was… To be tested in every turn, to have to plan two to three turns ahead, to have to watch the play of your opponent to have to bait them out of position, to have to LEARN it all, all over again. After a few months I wasn’t losing nearly as bad as I was, I was starting to win the odd game and it felt GOOD.

So trust me be careful what you wish for, you might just have to buy a new army…..
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 22 2015, 23:22

@der-al wrote:
Be careful what you wish for, just think how you’d feel if DE got the full on craftworld treatment (granted it’s very unlikely) but how would you feel taking an autowin army that takes no skill and just destroys anything put in its way.

May God strike me with such a curse!

And may I never recover!
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Tue Jun 23 2015, 00:22

@der-al: I don't think that most of us want to be given the Craftworld treatment, we just want the fluffy formations, and a reason to take several of our neglected units. As stated by others, we have paper boats because we are supposed to be fast, yet we are no longer faster then other armies. We are suposed to be master strategists who can plan decades ahead and have centuries of experience to allow us to launch lighting fast raids on worlds yet the Ultramarines are able to anticipate our attacks and ambush us upon arrival.

Making Wychs worth taking doesn't mean that you have to make them better then Banshees.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Tue Jun 23 2015, 08:03

Quote :
Be careful what you wish for, just think how you’d feel if DE got the full on craftworld treatment (granted it’s very unlikely) but how would you feel taking an autowin army that takes no skill and just destroys anything put in its way. I know this feeling it’s depressing, people start to think that you only win because of the army (not the list, or the tactics or knowing the strength and weakeness of your units).

Would take it at once.
When the 7th edition codex hit I felt guilty to play Eldar. Except against Crons as they are on the same power level.
Now that SM and DA arrived, there is nothing bad about playing Eldar anymore as these books are also at the same level.
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kidfist0
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Tue Jun 23 2015, 08:44

More dark angels guff that sounds like thigns we shouldve got.
Units in the deathwing formation get battle focus the turn they arrive. Yup, dark angels terminators can run and shoot.

units in the ravenwing formation get to count as jinking if they flat out or turbo-boost the turn they arrive without then suffering the snapshoot penalty in the following turn.

Neither are amazing, but both sound like rules that shouldve been given to the speed based army...
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Tue Jun 23 2015, 10:23

@Jimsolo wrote:
@der-al wrote:
Be careful what you wish for, just think how you’d feel if DE got the full on craftworld treatment (granted it’s very unlikely) but how would you feel taking an autowin army that takes no skill and just destroys anything put in its way.

May God strike me with such a curse!

And may I never recover!

lol!


To be honest, I think the 'Craftworld treatment' would still be preferable to our current state of affairs:

1) At least it would make us competitive on our own - rather than needing to ally in other armies to cover our many, any weaknesses.

2) At least we'd have some nice fluff and unique abilities, instead of crap like Concussive on our weapons. Hell, just go through our units and count how many actually have a unique special rule. Now do the same with the Eldar book. Depressing, no?

3) One thing I'd particularly like is that I could relax a bit and mess around with some fluffy lists - as opposed to always needing to find every single edge possible just to break even.

4) It would likely mean a lot more people playing and/or allying DE. And before anyone says it, yes, it's nice to be in a minority. But have you considered that this is also the reason GW puts sod-all effort into our book? Maybe if we were a popular army, they'd put a bit more thought into our subsequent books.

Bear in mind that this still isn't something I want to happen - I'd prefer a slightly stronger codex with much more flavour. However, given the choice between CWE and our current book, I'd choose the former.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Tue Jun 23 2015, 13:05

The cynic in me thinks GW nerfed DE so hard to boost sales of some of the upcoming (at the time) releases such as Harlequins, Skiitari/Cult Mechanicus, and Deamonkin, as those books all do things that we used to be decent at in our old codex. We used to be able to spam HWGs to deal with AV but now Skiitari has that ability and not us. We used to have a better, more practical PfP mechanic which we lost so that it could be added to Deamonkin. And we used to be a much better glass hammer army, which Harlequins are now much better at than us. They die to a stiff breeze but they will absolutely murder anything they can get close to, with both their shooting, assault, and leadership tricks (which actually work on Marines, unlike ours).
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Tue Jun 23 2015, 14:34

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
Be careful what you wish for, just think how you’d feel if DE got the full on craftworld treatment (granted it’s very unlikely) but how would you feel taking an autowin army that takes no skill and just destroys anything put in its way. I know this feeling it’s depressing, people start to think that you only win because of the army (not the list, or the tactics or knowing the strength and weakeness of your units).

Would take it at once.
When the 7th edition codex hit I felt guilty to play Eldar. Except against Crons as they are on the same power level.
Now that SM and DA arrived, there is nothing bad about playing Eldar anymore as these books are also at the same level.

this.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Tue Jun 23 2015, 15:18

I'd argue that Eldar are still ahead (mainly due to D-weapons, Wraithknight and Scatter-bikes), but with the new books the gap is much, much closer.
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Raven Cowl
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Tue Jun 23 2015, 15:34

I have the solution. Lets run our Dark Eldar as Dark Angels.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Tue Jun 23 2015, 16:08

@The Shredder wrote:
I'd argue that Eldar are still ahead (mainly due to D-weapons, Wraithknight and Scatter-bikes), but with the new books the gap is much, much closer.

While the D is strong and scatterbikes are a pest you can't have it all.
Sure I can field 3 WK and a lot of Scatterbikes vs DE. Not a Problem. But this is against a crap codex.
The WK is a lot less painful when you have grav everywhere. Reroll hits, reroll wounds -> dead WK from just one unit at half of his points. This also works against scatter bikes.
The only real D pain is the Hemlock and Scytheguard. The first is AV10 and the later is weak against grav and only works really well if applied with an allied WWP archon/haemi.

So better expect a WWP nerf.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Tue Jun 23 2015, 16:29

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:


So better expect a WWP nerf.

Of course the sensible thing there would just be to stop us being battle brothers with Craftworld Eldar - it's hardly like we're best buddies, even if there is some fluff justification for us fighting together I can hardly see them trusting us (and let's face it, we don't even trust ourselves!)

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Tue Jun 23 2015, 16:53

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

While the D is strong and scatterbikes are a pest you can't have it all.
Sure I can field 3 WK and a lot of Scatterbikes vs DE. Not a Problem. But this is against a crap codex.
The WK is a lot less painful when you have grav everywhere. Reroll hits, reroll wounds -> dead WK from just one unit at half of his points.

But not many books have access to Grav.

Out of the ones I can think of, Cult Mechanicus Destroyers will easily be removed via scatter bikes. Same goes for Devastators. Centurions are tougher, but the WK's D-weapons should take care of them without much trouble. Especially since it out-ranges them and is faster to boot.

Either way, D-weapons just shouldn't be in the game.

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

The only real D pain is the Hemlock and Scytheguard. The first is AV10 and the later is weak against grav and only works really well if applied with an allied WWP archon/haemi.

So better expect a WWP nerf.

The sad thing is that you're probably right.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Of course the sensible thing there would just be to stop us being battle brothers with Craftworld Eldar - it's hardly like we're best buddies, even if there is some fluff justification for us fighting together I can hardly see them trusting us (and let's face it, we don't even trust ourselves!)

To be honest, I'd rather see BBs removed completely. It's too much of a crutch and is responsible for about 90% of the broken combos in the game.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Tue Jun 23 2015, 17:16

Yeah, I'd also like to see Battle Brothers removed for all armies. If people want to play two different armies, that's fine, but you'll have to play them as two standalone armies sharing the same deployment zone rather than creating super friends combos that (I hope) GW never intended when they wrote the rules (nobody should ever be able to bring down five Str D templates anywhere on the battlefield at a time of their choosing.)
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Heezayy
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Wed Jun 24 2015, 20:52

Dark Angels now get to re-roll their failed jinks with the new Raven Wing formation, meaning with a Dark Shroud near by they get a 2+ re-rollable jink save. If it is a command squad then they will have 5+ FNP on top. We would have to chuck like 50 poison shots to reliably kill a single bike. I thought we were supposed to have the jinkiest bikes in the game!!
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Wed Jun 24 2015, 22:10

Surely you're forgetting all the amazing Ignores Cover weapons GW gave us in our book, like... um... well there's the... um... ah, but let's not forget the trusty old... uh...

I'll get back to you.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Wed Jun 24 2015, 23:18

@The Shredder wrote:
Surely you're forgetting all the amazing Ignores Cover weapons GW gave us in our book, like... um... well there's the... um... ah, but let's not forget the trusty old... uh...

I'll get back to you.

How dare you besmirch the sterling reputation of the almighty Liquifier!
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 00:11

He said 'weapons', not amusing novelty peashooters.

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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 00:17

@Count Adhemar wrote:
He said 'weapons', not amusing novelty peashooters.

Associating Liquifiers with either is a grave insult to both peashooters and amusing novelty items.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 01:05

Liquifier guns are a prank within the Covens. It's a form of hazing: making you carry the Liquifier Gun until you aren't the noob anymore.
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lelith
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 01:57

Well, liquifier gun is in fact quite cool



in fluff

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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 03:50

@Raven Cowl wrote:
I have the solution. Lets run our Dark Eldar as Dark Angels.

Dark Eldar? You mean our Space Marines in Mark 7.5 Power Armor! With those boltguns that nobody ever sees other chapters use because they come from some backwater Forge World. And our custom land speeders...

Now I want to design an army around the concept of a Kabal convincing the Imperium that it is, in fact, a Space Marine Chapter.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jun 25 2015, 08:13

I think an intern at GW got confused and filed "Ideas for ruleset changes : DARK eldar" in the "Ideas for ruleset changes : DARK angels" drawer and vice versa. That would explain our codex, because in the file for dark angels there is only a crumpled old post-it note saying: Dark Dork angels codex  "Update" instructions, take fun things out and make remaining units worse.

So don't hate GW. They are only doing the right thing. Blame it on Steve the intern.
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