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 New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!

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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Sun Jun 28 2015, 12:22

I consider Reavers mandatory in all of my lists. They will get some use vs Dark Angels, but I'm not sure how we'll they will perform. It's worth trying for sure.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Sun Jun 28 2015, 12:24

How many reaver do you use? With Blaster or heat Lance?
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Sun Jun 28 2015, 12:24

I think Reavers might be the answer to the rerollable jink issue. They're fast enough to catch the enemy bikes and their rending HOW is a counter to both their jink and armour.

Of course if you roll bad on your HOW you're pretty screwed as once you're actually in close combat you're all but useless...
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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Sun Jun 28 2015, 12:30

@FuelDrop wrote:
I think Reavers might be the answer to the rerollable jink issue. They're fast enough to catch the enemy bikes and their rending HOW is a counter to both their jink and armour.

Of course if you roll bad on your HOW you're pretty screwed as once you're actually in close combat you're all but useless...

That's my fear.

I have 9 total, but change out how I field them all the time. I consider caltrops to be basically required. I frequently give the blasters also if they are in 3 man squads, but overall it's probably a waste of points. My opponents never seem to shoot at them when their unit size is that small. The boasters let them help with anti tank in the beginning, and then they can shift roles to assault later.


Last edited by Trystis on Sun Jun 28 2015, 12:35; edited 1 time in total
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Sun Jun 28 2015, 12:35

@sweetbacon wrote:

However, I do have a slightly different opinion on our assault units.  Grots are awesome, but I've also been having a lot of fun and success with Reavers lately.  With decent combat drug rolls, their speed, Rending HoW/Caltrops, 2D6 assault move,  effective 24 inch rapid fire range (putting out the firepower of a Venom if taken in a unit of six), and 3+ Jink, I think they're really versatile and a good jack-of-all-trades type unit.  They make a great nuisance/harassment unit.  Of course, I will add that I don't face a lot of Tau, so that probably skews my perception of them.

I like Reavers, but I find them a bit unreliable in melee - mainly because they usually rely on their HoW hits to do any meaningful damage. Also, they tend to be pretty flimsy in melee (without their Jink to protect them).

Not that they're bad, but I tend to see them as more of a mop-up unit rather than an assault unit in the traditional sense.

I think I'd rather send them after the Darkshroud first, and after bikers second. My reasoning is that most melee units hate being left in the open after killing a vehicle, but Reavers are actually probably better off in the open than being ground down in combat.

@sweetbacon wrote:
And Talos of course, particularly in a DA or Corpsethief Claw are always awesome (if you're not facing D-spam or Grav-spam).  

Or Force Weapons. Wink

In any case, my concern with Talos is how they'd actually go about catching the DA bikers. Where's Acme glue when you need it? Razz
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Sun Jun 28 2015, 12:37

Quote :
That's my fear.

I have 9 total, but change out how I field them all the time. I consider caltrops to be basically required. I frequently give the blasters also if they are in 3 man squads, but overall it's probably a waste of points. My opponents never seem to shoot at them when their unit size is that small. The boasters let them help with anti tank in the beginning, and then they can shift roles to assault later.

An Arena Champion with an Agonizer should help with combat impotence against bikes. Can't do anything about bad rolling, but that's true of everyone.
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Sun Jun 28 2015, 13:40

@The Shredder wrote:
@sweetbacon wrote:

However, I do have a slightly different opinion on our assault units.  Grots are awesome, but I've also been having a lot of fun and success with Reavers lately.  With decent combat drug rolls, their speed, Rending HoW/Caltrops, 2D6 assault move,  effective 24 inch rapid fire range (putting out the firepower of a Venom if taken in a unit of six), and 3+ Jink, I think they're really versatile and a good jack-of-all-trades type unit.  They make a great nuisance/harassment unit.  Of course, I will add that I don't face a lot of Tau, so that probably skews my perception of them.

I like Reavers, but I find them a bit unreliable in melee - mainly because they usually rely on their HoW hits to do any meaningful damage. Also, they tend to be pretty flimsy in melee (without their Jink to protect them).

Not that they're bad, but I tend to see them as more of a mop-up unit rather than an assault unit in the traditional sense.

I think I'd rather send them after the Darkshroud first, and after bikers second. My reasoning is that most melee units hate being left in the open after killing a vehicle, but Reavers are actually probably better off in the open than being ground down in combat.

@sweetbacon wrote:
And Talos of course, particularly in a DA or Corpsethief Claw are always awesome (if you're not facing D-spam or Grav-spam).  

Or Force Weapons.  Wink

In any case, my concern with Talos is how they'd actually go about catching the DA bikers. Where's Acme glue when you need it?  Razz

I should say that Ive been using my three squads of six as one giant unit in concert with Grots so that nothing is ever getting charged by just one Reaver unit unless I'm absolutely sure it will be killed before the opponent gets a chance to swing.  I also don't start getting aggressive with my Reavers until Turn Three-Turn Four when FNP and Furious Charge have kicked in to give them a little more staying power if they do manage to get stuck in combat.  Combat drugs, while nothing to rely on, did help me last game when I got + 1Str, making them Str5 by the time I charged in with them on Turn Four.  Not great, but it did help them finish off a TWC squad.  

Against fast units like bikers, I would just accept that the Talos can't catch them and then use the Talos to control the center of the board/deny an area to the bikes.  Or use their TL Splinter Cannons to reach out and touch the bikes.  Not a perfect solution but not completely useless, either.  

But like I said, YMMV, as Reavers are one of those units which shine in some metas and suck in others.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Sun Jun 28 2015, 13:58

@sweetbacon wrote:

I should say that Ive been using my three squads of six as one giant unit in concert with Grots so that nothing is ever getting charged by just one Reaver unit unless I'm absolutely sure it will be killed before the opponent gets a chance to swing.  I also don't start getting aggressive with my Reavers until Turn Three-Turn Four when FNP and Furious Charge have kicked in to give them a little more staying power if they do manage to get stuck in combat.  Combat drugs, while nothing to rely on, did help me last game when I got + 1Str, making them Str5 by the time I charged in with them on Turn Four.  Not great, but it did help them finish off a TWC squad.  

Ah, I use mine rather differently.

I generally have 3 squads of 3, with one gue in each squad having Cluster Caltrops and a Heat Lance. Usually I try to position them on turn 1, and then get them to take out transports or other light vehicles on turn 2.

I'd like to try 2-3 squads of 6, but I only have 9 Reavers at the moment.

@sweetbacon wrote:

Against fast units like bikers, I would just accept that the Talos can't catch them and then use the Talos to control the center of the board/deny an area to the bikes.  Or use their TL Splinter Cannons to reach out and touch the bikes.  Not a perfect solution but not completely useless, either.  

Do you think they'd last well though?

What with bikes having access to Grav, and Black Knights having plasma talons.

@sweetbacon wrote:

But like I said, YMMV, as Reavers are one of those units which shine in some metas and suck in others.

I find that mine tend to swing between being really good and doing sod-all.

Which is still an improvement on my Scourges...
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Sun Jun 28 2015, 14:26

@The Shredder wrote:

Ah, I use mine rather differently.

I generally have 3 squads of 3, with one gue in each squad having Cluster Caltrops and a Heat Lance. Usually I try to position them on turn 1, and then get them to take out transports or other light vehicles on turn 2.

I'd like to try 2-3 squads of 6, but I only have 9 Reavers at the moment.

Do you think they'd last well though?

What with bikes having access to Grav, and Black Knights having plasma talons.

I find that mine tend to swing between being really good and doing sod-all.

Which is still an improvement on my Scourges...

Ah, thanks for explaining.  Now I see why our views on how their usefulness differs so much.  If your opponents are cool with it, you might want to try proxying two or three six man squads.  You may find that they are way more effective with the extra shooting and Rending HoW attacks.  

As for the Talos vs. Bikers question, I don't face a lot of Grav spam but I do see Plasma from time to time.  In that instance, I would park the Talos in terrain/ruins near the no-go area for the bikes and then take your cover save + FNP while you rake the bikes with your poison shots.   If you really want to be cheeky, run them with a DA so that they are getting the cover save plus a 4+FNP.  It's a big points investment, but I have the same philosophy with Talos that I do with Reavers in that quantity has a quality all its own (I own 12 Talos...clearly, I have a problem).
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 29 2015, 10:44

As others have said I believe multiple units of 3-6 reavers are our best bet to take out DA bikers.

Ravenwings awesome 2, 3 or 4+ re-rolling jinks mean shooting at them will usually be a waste of time as GW has seen fit to bless us with zero ranged ignore cover guns.

Reavers are fast enough to catch them and can do real damage to them with HOW attacks, then hit and run away in their turn and charge again in ours.

A biker autarch with a special close combat weapon (shard) will add great Ld and serious punch to a unit of 6 reavers with caltrops.

As Ravenwing can run a lot of grav a grotesquery can provide a solid anchor for reaver to operate around.

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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 29 2015, 11:28

Should Allying in CWE be an option I believe Dark Reapers will eat Raven Wing for breakfast, ignoring jink and armour saves, wounding fairly often, putting out good volume fire, and rerolling failed hits if they move flat out.

Not exactly helpful if you have to go to another codex, but it's something to keep in mind.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 29 2015, 11:31

@FuelDrop wrote:
Should Allying in CWE be an option I believe Dark Reapers will eat Raven Wing for breakfast, ignoring jink and armour saves, wounding fairly often, putting out good volume fire, and rerolling failed hits if they move flat out.

Not exactly helpful if you have to go to another codex, but it's something to keep in mind.

Yeah, a unit of 5 Dark Reapers, including an Exarch, kills 5 SM bikers per turn fairly reliably. I wish we had something in our codex that could say the same!

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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 29 2015, 11:51

And keeping them in a Wave Serpent with S&P to avoid any deepstrikers certainly helps keep them a viable option

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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 29 2015, 17:16

If this isn't too far off topic, since several people now are recommending reavers, could anyone help suggestions as far as getting reavers into position without being charged first and severely damaged if not killed, or just moving away?
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 29 2015, 17:29

@sweetbacon wrote:

Ah, thanks for explaining.  Now I see why our views on how their usefulness differs so much.  If your opponents are cool with it, you might want to try proxying two or three six man squads.  You may find that they are way more effective with the extra shooting and Rending HoW attacks.

I'll give that a go.

@sweetbacon wrote:

As for the Talos vs. Bikers question, I don't face a lot of Grav spam but I do see Plasma from time to time.  In that instance, I would park the Talos in terrain/ruins near the no-go area for the bikes and then take your cover save + FNP while you rake the bikes with your poison shots.   If you really want to be cheeky, run them with a DA so that they are getting the cover save plus a 4+FNP.  It's a big points investment, but I have the same philosophy with Talos that I do with Reavers in that quantity has a quality all its own (I own 12 Talos...clearly, I have a problem).

Whilst I generally agree with the 'quantity has a quality of its own' philosophy, it seems bit odd when applied to 2 models (well, 3 if you include the Haemonculus). Wink

With regard to 12 Talos, sounds like you're well on your way to fielding a Carnival of Pain. Very Happy

@Ubernoob1 wrote:
If this isn't too far off topic, since several people now are recommending reavers, could anyone help suggestions as far as getting reavers into position without being charged first and severely damaged if not killed, or just moving away?

Getting them into position is tricky. I've lost squads several times after misjudging the distance an enemy squad could charge. I think using terrain is definitely key, as you suffer no penalty from hanging out in it - but most enemy trying to charge you will be slowed. Better yet, if they can't see you then they can't charge you.

Alternatively, especially if your opponent has a slow squad, you could simply put them somewhere where your opponent won't want to charge them. e.g. Let's say your opponent has something like a terminator squad in a land raider. Well, now let's say you turbo boost 3 or 6 reavers behind them on his back table edge. If he ignores them, then they get to do what they like in your turn. If he assaults them, then his terminators and land raider are going to be waaay out of position. And, if you destroy his land raider in your turn, then those terminators are basically out of the game.

Or, on a similar note, you could use them to bait an enemy squad. Either to lure them out of cover, or into the charge range of your Grotesques or somesuch. At worst, the enemy doesn't fall for it and your reavers don't get assaulted.

Also, not really what you were asking, but don't discount the value of using reavers to screen your vehicles .
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Ubernoob1
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 29 2015, 17:35

@The Shredder

Alright, thanks. I've just had really bad luck with my reavers lately even though everyone seems to be doing amazing things with them from the sounds of posts on this site so I was wondering what I was doing wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 29 2015, 17:36

When I've used mine thus far, I use their 12 + 2DR assault move or 12 + 36 turbo boost, to make sure they're always hidden from LoS until it's time to charge.  Reavers are not an early game assault unit. They should be using their mobility to hide and move from LoS blocking terrain to LoS blocking terrain for the first two or three turns (obviously Maelstrom missions are an exception and I'm speaking only about Eternal War missions here). They should also not be your only assault unit, Grotesques combo with them very well.  I've found that one unit isn't anything to write home about.  Two is pretty good.  Three is awesome.  They are a unit that really needs to be taken in multiples to shine and ensure your opponent can't focus on killing just one squad to eliminate your fastest CC threat.  Don't be afraid to to turbo boost away in the early to mid-game to keep them alive since you need FNP and Furious Charge on them to ensure they still have a chance to survive if the Caltrops and Bladevanes don't kill what they charge.  And unless you're charging a squad that's already been whittled down significantly through shooting, never charge with just one unit of Reavers.  Charge with two.  Or one Reaver unit and one Grotesque unit.  Or one Reaver unit and one Incubi unit.  You get the idea.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 29 2015, 19:58

I am rather new to posting, but it sounds as though everyone who fields majority kabalite and wyches have problems. Aside from wracks overall I am quite please with the buff to coven units. My meta boasts a whooping 1 regular dark angels player so I won't typically worry about facing them. My list is very grot heavy at 1850pts I have 4x4 grotesques.2 of those units being the super grots. I do run eldar allies mainly for the farseer support and because the windriders are good transport opening units.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Mon Jun 29 2015, 23:25

@Ubernoob1 wrote:
@The Shredder

Alright, thanks. I've just had really bad luck with my reavers lately even though everyone seems to be doing amazing things with them from the sounds of posts on this site so I was wondering what I was doing wrong.

Mine tend to do poorer than statistics would suggest as well, so you're in good company.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Tue Jun 30 2015, 01:00

My Reavers are a very all or nothing unit.

I had two games in a row where they spectacularly failed to succeed at anything before getting shot up and running off the table. Then a third game in which they annihilated no less than 3 units over the course of the game taking a measly 1 casualty in return.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Thu Jul 02 2015, 23:23

@amorrowlyday wrote:
Not a chance in hell of an Eldar: Commarragh codex. We very well could be getting a LoW out of the DoD, and maybe a supplement liek Covens, but I highly doubt we'll see anything bigger than that.

DOD? What's that?
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jul 03 2015, 05:12

As excessive as the release schedule has been, they haven't replaced a 7th ed book yet. And there's no reason to think that the current rate of releases will last indefinitely.

Until I start seeing leaks and very specific rumors, I am going to proceed under the assumption that we will never get another codex.

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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jul 03 2015, 05:37

I think the fact that they're replacing hardcover books now indicates a move towards the new meta-detachment system, and I don't see them stopping until everyone's on board.
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jul 03 2015, 17:40

@FullDE wrote:
DOD? What's that?
The Dias of Destruction, Asdrubel Vect's personal Raider. In the past it has had it's own model, and there is concrete leaks that a new model was commisioned and is complete or near complete.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: New Dark Angels. Another reason to hate GW!   Fri Jul 03 2015, 22:28

@Jimsolo wrote:
I think the fact that they're replacing hardcover books now indicates a move towards the new meta-detachment system, and I don't see them stopping until everyone's on board.

They have done this before and they have switched design values more than once.

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