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 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player

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Zahaladune
Hellion
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PostSubject: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Sat Jun 20 2015, 18:51

Hey there old Commorrites,

Firstly, sorry if these topics have already been exhaustively covered in other threads, I wont try to use the "lack of search-fu" excuse; I simply suck so deal wit it.

I'm coming back from a hiatus, and it seems some major changes have occurred to my long time favorite army.  I haven't been able to pick up the new dex yet, but I hear/read disturbing things. So...

Wyches no longer have haywire grenades?!? Are they still a viable option, and if so, how might we use them now?

The Court of the Archon is a stand-alone HQ choice??  This initially seems like a sweet deal, but how are people using them?

There are probably other changes I should know about, and in time will, but these two just stuck out as major potential list changers to me.

Please, enlighten this old Archon as to the new ways of the dark harvest.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Sat Jun 20 2015, 19:15

In answer to your first question, wyches have no role, function or place in the current game.

With regard to the court, I think the most common build you'll see is a single Lhamaean as the compulsory HQ choice. Mainly because our other HQs are about as much use as a crossbow that won't fire unless you're pointing it up your own nose.

Anyway, other common(ish) builds for the court that I've seen include:
- 1-4 Medusae
- 3-4 Sslyth, a Medusae and possibly an HQ.

As a general rule, Sslyth and Medusae are the only ones I see fielded in multiples, and I can't recall ever seeing a build that used Ur-Ghuls. Usually it just depends what you want out of it - a tough/bodyguard unit (multiple Sslyth), multiple flamers (Medusae) or a cheap HQ (Lhamaean).

I'll be honest though - I pretty much only use the 'single lhamaean' option myself, so I'll leave further tactics regarding the court to others.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Sat Jun 20 2015, 19:46

Wyches are useless, and haywire grenades are used as a 5 pt filler on your characters.

For the court, you can take a single Lhamaen to game the HQ system, or you can take some Sslyth to bodyguard a real HQ. You can also take one or more mounted medusae (on their own or with an HQ character) as a template gunboat.
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Zahaladune
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Sat Jun 20 2015, 20:36

@The Shredder wrote:
In answer to your first question, wyches have no role, function or place in the current game.

Uhh...Uhhh...Huh?!?!

So...moving on from the cerebral hemorrhage I just endured, did Incubi or something else take the place of the Fluff based CC unit that represented one of the four pillars of our Commorrite society?  Seriously though, there isn't any reason to use Wyches?  Any changes to Wych weapons??

As for the court, that sounds kinda cool.  I could really get behind some fast moving AP3 flamer spam.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Sat Jun 20 2015, 20:49

@Zahaladune wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
In answer to your first question, wyches have no role, function or place in the current game.

Uhh...Uhhh...Huh?!?!

So...moving on from the cerebral hemorrhage I just endured, did Incubi or something else take the place of the Fluff based CC unit that represented one of the four pillars of our Commorrite society?  Seriously though, there isn't any reason to use Wyches?  Any changes to Wych weapons??

Well, you could take them for fluff/model reasons. But, in gameplay terms, they add nothing to an army.

They're a melee unit that absolutely sucks at their job. Anyone scared by S3 melee attacks with no Rending, Shred, Poison or anything to make them even remotely threatening? Didn't think so.

Oh, but it gets better - because those models can't even take a beating themselves. T3, 6+ armour. Outstanding.

Finally, they're not even a cheap option - being 2pts per model more expensive than Warriors, and yet having nothing but inadequacies to show for it.

So, we have an expensive troop choice that's apparently a dedicated melee unit, yet lacks any punch in melee, or any survivability outside of it.

Literally their only useful role in 6th was destroying vehicles with haywire grenades. Now that's been removed, and replaced with absolutely nothing. There's simply nothing they do that our other units can't do much, much better.

With regard to Wych weapons, they got cheaper but just became worthless.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Sat Jun 20 2015, 22:10

I don't know...
If you compare wyches to Bloodletters (same role) it just gets depressing.
Better WS, better S, same Sv, only 5++ but in all phases, Deepstrike, fearless und AP3 across the board.
Same points.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Sat Jun 20 2015, 22:16

Want to know something even more depressing?

Bloodletters are considered terrible units themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Sun Jun 21 2015, 00:19

Wyches have replaced Mandrakes as the worst unit in the dex. It just pains me to no end to say that but it's true.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Sun Jun 21 2015, 01:18

Oh, I think hellions can give the ladies a run for their money for that title.
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doctorz
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Sun Jun 21 2015, 01:52

Yeah wyches are just bad now, there’s no getting around it.
On a more positive note a lot in the book is still good in combat. Grotesques got better, incubi are about the same(not great but fin for fun games), Reavers don’t get fly over attacks but got WAY cheaper and are now a legit close combat threat, Talos can now be taken in units of up to three(5 with the covens supplement) and Lhamians are actually threatening in units of 5+(and cheap).
The court of the archon is my favorite HQ to take. 10 points for 1 Lhamian if a pretty good deal when you don’t really want to put an HQ in your list. I’ll be honest I don’t think the Dark eldar Character HQs are very good. Sure in the right list they can do some interesting things and The Webway Portal has a lot of intersting applications but on the whole I’m inclined to invest my points elsewhere, at least for competitive play.
An interesting not on the Medusae. If you deep strike them in a transport(venoms and raiders can deep strike now) they can disembark up to 6” before using their flamer. It’s fairly accurate.

I’d say on the whole the book stayed at about the same power level. The problem is a lot of other books have gotten better.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Sun Jun 21 2015, 09:21

Yeah, I won't consider using Wyches at all, not even filler. There's just no function they can play anymore that something else can't do better.

On the Court question, my favourite tactic to date is four Medusae in a Venom with a character who has a Webway Portal.
Drop that right next to an important enemy unit (with save 3+ or worse) and let the Eye Bursts go. Thats a lovely dead unit.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Sun Jun 21 2015, 11:09

@The Shredder wrote:
Want to know something even more depressing?

Bloodletters are considered terrible units themselves.

They are terrible because everything else in the book is just better.
They also have problems surviving when walking. Give them an opten topped transport and suddenly they are quite potent.
Just imagine we could charge with 20 WS/S 5 and AP3 Attacks for just 155 points.
Tearing through MEQ...
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Sun Jun 21 2015, 11:17

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

They are terrible because everything else in the book is just better.
They also have problems surviving when walking. Give them an opten topped transport and suddenly they are quite potent.
Just imagine we could charge with 20 WS/S 5 and AP3 Attacks for just 155 points.
Tearing through MEQ...  

That's the thing though, isn't it? They don't have transports.

And, while a 5++ is nice to have, it isn't much help when you're T3 and it's your only save.


But, yeah, if they had access to Raiders, Trukks or somesuch then Bloodletters would be terrifying. affraid
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition changes bring new questions to old player   Tue Jun 23 2015, 13:13

@Zahaladune wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
In answer to your first question, wyches have no role, function or place in the current game.

Uhh...Uhhh...Huh?!?!

So...moving on from the cerebral hemorrhage I just endured, did Incubi or something else take the place of the Fluff based CC unit that represented one of the four pillars of our Commorrite society?  Seriously though, there isn't any reason to use Wyches?  Any changes to Wych weapons??

As for the court, that sounds kinda cool.  I could really get behind some fast moving AP3 flamer spam.

To answer your first question, currently our best CC unit is a squad (or two!) of Grotesques, preferably run in the formation out of the Covens supplement.  They will  kill/tarpit pretty much any unit that doesn't pack a lot of Str 10/Force weapons.  

As for the court, Medusae are awesome.  For 50-75 points, (I take three just to ensure there are no survivors) you can erase a 10 man squad of MEQ in one turn.  They are our only HQ choice you can say that about (sadly).
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