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Illumanatee
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PostSubject: Wishlisting   Thu Jun 18 2015, 21:44

The more I play DE and see them being played, the more I get an idea of what they are lacking and what options or even units in the codex are good, decent or bad. Creating this thread to basically have an official wishlisting post where we can collect ideas. Though they are most likely not going to actually have an influence on the next codex, it's interesting and fun, at least to me.

Let's start.

Unit Statline Change Ideas:

-Kabalite Trueborns, Sybarites, Hekatrixes, Bloodbrides, Helliarchs, Arena Champions, Solarites, Nightfiends:
WS and BS to 5 from 4

-Dracons:
WS and BS to 6 from 4, initiative to 6 from 5, LP to 2 from 1

-Syrens:
WS to 7 from 4, BS to 5 from 4, initiative to 7 from 6, LP to 2 from 1

-Wracks:
strength to 4 from 3

-Acothysts:
WS and BS to 5 from 4, strength to 4 from 3

-Klaivexes:
LP to 2 from 1

Unit Point Cost/Special Rule Change Ideas:

-Haemonculi:
to 60 from 70

-Klaivexes:
to 20 from 10

-Dracons, Syrens:
to 15 from 10

-Drazhar:
to 140 from 190

-Sslyths:
to 20 from 25
double arm pair special rule: can fire 2 instead of 1 weapon

Wargear Point Cost Change Ideas:

-Splinter Cannon:
to 10 from 15 for Kabalite Warriors
to 5 from 15 for Scourges

-Dark Lance:
to 15 from 20 for Kabalite Warriors
to 10 from 20 for Scourges

-Blaster:
to 10 from 15 for Scourges

-Shredder:
to 2 from 5 for Scourges

-Power Sword:
to 10 from 15 for Sybarites, Hekatrixes, Arena Champions, Helliarchs

-Agonizer:
to 20 from 25 for Sybarites, Hekatrixes, Arena Champions, Helliarchs
to 10 from 25 for Acothysts

-Flesh Gauntlet:
to 5 from 10 for Aberrations, Acothysts

-Scissor Hand:
to 5 from 10 for Aberrations, Acothysts

-Venom Blade:
to 5 from 10

-Electrocorrossive Whip:
to 10 from 20

-Osseofactor:
to 10 from 15

-Hexrifle:
to 20 from 10

- every Wych Cult Weapon:
to 3 from 5

Unit Option Change/Addition Ideas:

-Helliarchs, Arena Champions, Solarites:
can buy haywire grenades for 5 points

-Venoms:
can switch out every of its splinter cannons ( the one took as upgrade too) for a desintegrator cannon for free or for a dark lance for 5 points each

-Archons, Sybarites, Solarites, Dracons:
can switch out his cc weapon for a splinter pistol for free

-Raiders, Ravagers:
can switch out every of its desintegrator cannons for splinter cannons for free

-Razorwing Jetfighters:
can switch out its splinter cannon ( if it has one as an upgrade ) for a desintegratot cannon for free or for a dark lance for 5 points
can switch out its desintegrator cannons for splinter cannons for free

-Ravagers:
can switch out all its desintegrator cannons for a runic cannon ( gonna come to that later on ) for 40 points

-Voidraven Bombers:
can switch out its void bomb for a singularity mine for free ( gonna come to that later )
can't take rockets anymore

-Sslyths:
come with 2 cc weapons and 2 splinter pistols instead of  with 1 cc weapon, 1 splinter pistol and 1 shard carbine
can switch out several of its splinter pistol/cc weapon pairs for a shard carbine for 5 points each


Wargear Statline/Special Rule Change Ideas:

-Liquifier Gun:
strength to 4 from 3

-Hexrifle:
AP to 2 from 4, add fleshbane

-Void Bomb:
small blast instead of large blast, strength to 10 from 9, AP to 1 from 2, add armourbane

-Blaster Pistol:
range to 12'' from 6''

Wargear Addition Ideas:

-Specialist Weapons
-available to Archons, Sybarites, Solarites, Dracons
-haywire pistol:*
strength 4 AP 4, 12'' range, pistol, haywire
10 pts ( 5 for solarites )
-blaster pistol:*
10 pts ( 5 for solarites )
-blaster:*
15 pts ( 10 for solarites )
-hexrifle:*
20 pts ( 15 for solarites )
-hexpistol:*
strength 1 AP 2, 12'' range, sniper, pistol, fleshbane, hexrifle special rule (whatever it was called again)
15 pts ( 10 for solarites )
-runic crossbow:
strength 10 AP 1, assault 1, 24'' range,  precision shots, every 6 inflicts d3 wounds/hull points instead of 1, 35 points (30 for solarites)
-"*" means that it can be taken once for every splinter pistol, replacing it

-Wych Cult Weapons:
add haywire grenades for 3 points per model ( wyches will still keep their splinter pistol and cc weapon if they take this option in contrary to other wych-weapons)

-Runic Cannon:
destroyer weapon, AP 1

-Singularity Mine:
large blast, strength 6 AP 2, shred

Unit Addition Ideas:

-Covens Flesh Titan as Lord of War
-Super-Heavy Flyer as Lord of War
-Vect


So these are my ideas for now The focus is set on:
-making sergeants worth their points
-having more characters that are able to take a challenge for their Warlords
-giving Bloodbrides and Trueborns a more Elite feel to them and making them more worth their points
-Giving Ranged options to squad leaders of ranged units ( archons being able to be a part of them and not just make him a WWP wearer without him being able to shoot himself with the unit deepstriking down ), to make those upgrades considerable
-statbuffs making sergeant upgrades considerable and not useless and overpointed
-adjusting wargear costs to statlines and what they are switching out for it
-giving DE a Lord of War and a way to counter enemy D-Weapons and Wraithknights
-Vect!
-double pistols are really, really cool
-enough haywire grenades (4 with hekatrix and wych-cult weapons) for wyches to have a way to deal with transports, but not as much to make them mainly an anti-tank unit ( 10 haywire grenades like in the old codex ), this would work against the idea of them, keeping them an anti-infantry unit
-giving every squad leader acces to haywire grenades, especially making Hellions a lot more viable
-the option to have either  splinter cannons, desintegrator cannons or dark lances on venoms, raiders, razorwings and ravagers, making it not that confusing to pick what to shoot at, instead having them equipped to kill one specific kind of unit, also giving them the option to equip against the same unit as whatever is embarked on them
-right now you kind of struggle between placing the void bomb on high armor elite infantry or vehicles, the changes to the void bomb and the addition of the singularity mine would fix that: void bomb will be dropped on vehicles, singularity mine on elite infantry
-making choosing between wracks and grotesques an actual decision with that wrack and acothyst buff
-sslyths can be equipped for cc and shooting
-haemonculi and drazhar were overpriced


Some units of my wishlist to make the ideas I had more clear:

Blasterborn 2.0:
5 trueborn:
1 dracon upgrade, blaster/runic crossbow
4 with blasters
venom with double lances
220-240 pts.

Splinterspam Kabs:
10 kabalites:
1 sybarite upgrade, hexrifle (optional)
1 with splinter cannon upgrade
raider with splinter cannon, night shields, splinter racks
175-205 pts.

Close Range Facemelting Trueborn:
5 trueborn:
1 dracon upgrade, 2 hexpistols
4 with shredders
venom with double splinter cannons
185 pts.

Blaster-Scourges:
5 scourges:
1 solarite upgrade, blaster
4 with blasters
140 pts.

Haywire-Scourges 2.0:
5 scourges:
1 solarite upgrade, 2 haywire pistols
4 with haywire blasters
140 pts.

Haywire Wyches:
10 wyches:
1 hekatrix upgrade, haywire grenades
3 with haywire grenades
raider with dark lance/splinter cannon/desintegrator cannon, aether sails, night shields
199-204 pts.

Shooty Archon:
1 archon:
runic crossbow/hexrifle/blaster/2 hexpistols/2 haywire pistols/ 2 blaster pistols
shadow field
WWP (optional )
115-170 pts.

Ranged Sslyth Bodyguards:
1-12 sslyths
2 shard carbines each
30 pts. each

CC Sslyth Bodyguards:
1-12 sslyths
2 cc weapons and 2 splinter pistols each
20 pts. each

Splinterspam Ravager:
1 ravager:
3 splinter cannons
night shields ( optional )
110-125 pts.

D-Ravager:
1 ravager:
runic cannon
night shields ( optional )
150-165 pts.

Anti-Air Razorwing:
1 razorwing:
3 dark lances
155 pts.

RIP Flying Hive Tyrants:
1 razorwing:
3 splinter cannons/ 3 desintegrator cannons
140 pts.


Would love to get some feedback on this aswell as your ideas, haven't thought about what a fleshtitan or vect would be like.
I apologize if I got some weapon names wrong, not a native English speaker.
Have fun wishlisting.


Last edited by Illumanatee on Fri Jun 19 2015, 11:03; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Thu Jun 18 2015, 21:56

Vect as a LoW and he twin links all Spinter Weapons of the detachment....but that's just wishlisting Wink

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SaturdayNightWrist
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Thu Jun 18 2015, 22:17

Give mandrakes a 4+ inv
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Thu Jun 18 2015, 22:40

Bring back Duke and Baron.

Return Clone Field to the old rules.
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 05:27

Wishlisting is fun. What's the fluff idea behind the Runic cannon & crossbow? Also I like the idea of Dracons and Syrens as mini-Archons and mini-Succubi. Just like 3ed...

My list:

- Let wyches use their dodge against overwatch
- Return wych weapons to 3.5 ed rules, a blanket option for the squad that reduces enemy WS and A. It's more fun to model also
- Allow Warriors to take disintegrators, haywire blasters & heat lances, reavers to take haywire blasters and shredders, wracks to take splinter pods (obviously as special or heavy upgrades, not everyone in the unit!). We have heaps of different weapons that are siloed, only able to be taken on one or two units. So annoying.
- let Cronos take both its wargear options at once
- bike option for HQs, skyboard option also for succubus, maybe scourge wing option for Archon?
- AP2 huskblade
- Make us faster - maybe villainous battle focus run and then assault, or move 12" and still disembark from transports, heck even just +1 to move distance or run distance. Throw us a fricking bone here.
- Make monoscythe missiles S8 AP3 or something, but no blast so they can be used as AA. How many different ways to drop a large blast on infantry dudes does 1 plane need?
- If we're talking serious wishlist, let splinter rifles grant +1 A in melee for all the spiky protrusions, Kroot style
- At least one pinning weapon in the book would be nice
- soulfright to work regardless of ATSKNF or Fearless, it is supernatural terror afterall
- rework soul trap, maybe for every wound inflicted in melee the bearer skips forward a turn on the power from pain chart? Or +2 S for every character killed anytime?
- Let venoms swap splinter cannons for disintegrators
- actual choices in the melee upgrades section would be nice
- Djinn blade, at least allow inv saves when it hits the bearer, let it count as a soul trap as well?

And, naturally, a dark eldar warhost meta-formation!
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Illumanatee
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 09:32

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
What's the fluff idea behind the Runic cannon & crossbow?

I had the idea of dark lance energy captured and condensed in arcane runic hexcages, the same haemonculi use to capture their prey or the runes that are used to keep Khaine's Gate closed. If a runic cannon is fired, the runecage is opened for a millisecond, releasing an extremely condensed portion of dark energy that is formed into a beam by the gun barrel and unleashed upon the enemy.
The runic crossbow however works in another way. The wearer has the runic crossbow itself, formed  like, you guessed it, a bow and a glove that is used to form and bend hexcage runes. The wearer pulls the bow with his glove, forming an arrow of dark energy that is flinged into the enemy upon releasing it.


Last edited by Illumanatee on Fri Jun 19 2015, 11:04; edited 1 time in total
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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 09:55

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
Wishlisting is fun. What's the fluff idea behind the Runic cannon & crossbow? Also I like the idea of Dracons and Syrens as mini-Archons and mini-Succubi. Just like 3ed...

My list:

- Let wyches use their dodge against overwatch
- Return wych weapons to 3.5 ed rules, a blanket option for the squad that reduces enemy WS and A. It's more fun to model also
- Allow Warriors to take disintegrators, haywire blasters & heat lances, reavers to take haywire blasters and shredders, wracks to take splinter pods (obviously as special or heavy upgrades, not everyone in the unit!). We have heaps of different weapons that are siloed, only able to be taken on one or two units. So annoying.
- let Cronos take both its wargear options at once
- bike option for HQs, skyboard option also for succubus, maybe scourge wing option for Archon?
- AP2 huskblade
- Make us faster - maybe villainous battle focus run and then assault, or move 12" and still disembark from transports, heck even just +1 to move distance or run distance. Throw us a fricking bone here.
- Make monoscythe missiles S8 AP3 or something, but no blast so they can be used as AA. How many different ways to drop a large blast on infantry dudes does 1 plane need?
- If we're talking serious wishlist, let splinter rifles grant +1 A in melee for all the spiky protrusions, Kroot style
- At least one pinning weapon in the book would be nice
- soulfright to work regardless of ATSKNF or Fearless, it is supernatural terror afterall
- rework soul trap, maybe for every wound inflicted in melee the bearer skips forward a turn on the power from pain chart? Or +2 S for every character killed anytime?
- Let venoms swap splinter cannons for disintegrators
- actual choices in the melee upgrades section would be nice
- Djinn blade, at least allow inv saves when it hits the bearer, let it count as a soul trap as well?

And, naturally, a dark eldar warhost meta-formation!

Copied because I think they nailed it, but with one addition. That the Void Raven gets improved. Maybe its bomb is D, and void lance S10.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 10:15

I absolutely LOVE the idea of Venoms with Disintegrator Cannons!! I've got shedloads of them going spare from Ravager and Raider kits so I could easily convert some Venoms if this was allowed.

To add to the list, I'd like to see a vastly improved PfP table that takes into account the number of models killed but also gives some base benefits as the game progresses.


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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 10:47

My wishlist:

Basic unit changes:

- Vect as LoW, with Dias as an upgrade (like Grimnar).
- Bring back the Duke.
- Can't be bothered with Baron.
- Decapitator as a unit upgrade for Mandrakes.
- Wyches get Dodge vs Overwatch.
- Wyches have SOMETHING to make them effective combat units. Rending would do.
- Incubi some sort of new special rule to make them more useful compared to other combat units. As bodyguards, my suggestion is the ability to make one close combat attack each as their Overwatch.
-Drop Acothysts from Wracks, and bring in mini-Haemonculi as unit upgrades for those squads.
- Let the Flickerfield prevent No Escape. Let it save against an entire template hit and not allow the passengers to take further damage.
- Razorwing gets Vector Dancer.
- Make Reavers either tougher (T4) or cheaper.
- A new weapons platform, preferably a Venom base with a large weapon rather than transport capacity.
- The Raven as a mini-flyer, preferably in a Squadron. Capable of taking on other Flyers (instead of Scourge doing it).

- No Fleshtitan. I really don't like the idea. It just seems.....unimaginative.

Formations:
- Reaver force - just a bulk of Reavers. Maybe a "counts as having Turbo Boosted in the first turn but can act normally in their turn" to give them some defence. Maybe Outflank instead.
- Hellion Gang - maybe one upgrade to make Baron with his old special rules of extra cover save, etc.
- Flyer Wing - group of Flyers, probably Razorwings, in one squadron.
- Coven, obviously.
- Wych Cult, obviously.
- Kabalite force, all mounted, all Deep Striking as though with Webway Portals (to not scatter).
- Grand Court - Court of the Archon with multiple Archons, basically a Seer Council for the Dark Eldar, but without the powers.

Wargear
- A single piece available for ANY basic squad which protects against Psychic Powers. Just something basic that can be bought for any Sybarite, Succubus, etc. Top of my head, maybe gives Adamantine Will?
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 11:56

Wyches WS 5.
Incubi have grenades.
Twin Linked Dark Lances and Void Lances for fighter and bomber.
Fighter can take Void Lances for 10 per.
Ravagers can take Void Lances for 10 pts per.
Vect comes back as a LoW.
Malays comes back as a LoW.
Duke as named Archon.
Liquifers are Str 4.
Huskblade is AP2.
Venom blades are upgrades for Squad Characters.
All flyers of ours get Vector Dancer.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 13:39

I'll see if I can dig up one of my old wishlists for the 5th edition book, since I don't think the new book addressed a single one of them.

In fact, here it is (revisions in red):

Hmm, let's see. In no particular order:

- A lot of units need point drops.

- Come to that, so do a lot of weapons. Unless blasters are getting an extra shot, they should be 10pts. Dark Lances should probably be 15, unless GW would instead like to make them actually good.

- Haemonculus Ancient gets IWND (very minor buff, but fits the fluff). And not just in the coven book. Also, where did our mini-haemonculi go?

- More weapon options on our vehicles. If it's not too much trouble, maybe ones that are actually useful.

- More weapon options on Trueborn and Warriors. Why is it that Marines can have about 10 different weapons, but we're stuck with:
- A Dark Lance
- A Short-range Dark Lance
- A garbage flamer-wannabe that no one ever takes
- More poison (we were running a bit short)

We even have other weapons - haywire blasters, heat lances etc. - they're just not available for... um... reasons.

- In particular, with vehicles being so amazing in this edition, it would be nice if we had some better weapons for taking them out. Eldar has a variety of useful weapons... yet we're stuck with just dark lances. Also, as others have said, for a Glass Cannon army our weapons seem really pathetic. It's at the stage where we're less glass-cannon and more glass pea-shooter.


Also, whilst I like the idea of poison weapons, more recently I've found them as much of a hindrance as a bonus (can't hurt vehicles, worse against T3). At the very least, it would be nice to see either some different values for poison (not just a blanket 4+), or different weapons having different strength values (so, they're all 4+ still, but some can reroll against certain toughness scores). Come to that, why is it we're stuck with 4+ poison? I mean, even our Special Character - the pirate master of contraband - can only get 3+ poison. And yet SM sternguard get poison that is literally twice as effective. See what I mean when I say we're a glass pea-shooter?


- Really, a lot of equipment in general needs looking at - so much of it is worthless or just badly-overpriced:

Venom Blades - Good, basic weapon. No complaints, however, it always feels wrong when something like this is our go-to weapon - even for HQs - because our other weapons are so terrible and/or overpriced. Thanks, GW, for first doubling the price of this weapon and the removing it from 99% of units in our codex anyway.

Power Weapons - I might consider a Power Axe on a Haemonculus (if I had spare points), or on one of our Sergeants, but that's about it. Oh, look what else has gone. I'm glad we still pay marine prices for the worst power weapon.

Huskblade - Seems far too expensive for S3 models. Still, it's currently our only AP2 weapon that strikes at initiative and at least has a solid effect. Also, why does a Haemonculus pay as much for this as an Archon? Yeah, fear those WS4 I4 attacks.  Rolling Eyes Well, it's cheaper. Pity it's entire purpose went out the window when it lost AP2.  

Agoniser - Not a poison weapon, and now only AP3. Sigh. Our glass-cannon seems to be lacking ammunition. Well, it's now a poison weapon at least. Doesn't deserve to be more than 15pts though.

Electrocorrosive Whip - Does anyone ever use this? I feel you could knock off 75% of its price and it would still never see play. Oddly enough, GW, concussive was not the solution to this particular problem.

Flesh Gauntlet - Is there some sort of design code whereby crap weapons have to cost 20pts? I can't think of many situations where this would be better than Venom Blades (and it costs 4 times as much), and even fewer where poison-shooting wouldn't work even better. Still, at least it's available on the combat beast that is the Haemonculus... Well, it got cheaper. Utterly worthless on everything but Grotesques, but I guess we can't have everything... or anything.

Mindphase Gauntlet - An initiative-based weapon that's exclusive to I4 models (And the Haem. Ancient). Also very specific in its targets, and doesn't actually improve your combat abilities one iota. At least it's cheap, I guess. GW, remember how I said Concussive wasn't a fix for the electro whip? Well, the same applies here... and this weapon doesn't even have any other effects. What's the point? Why are we consistently given the worst possible special rules? This isn't even scraping the bottom of the barrel, this is excavating a third sub-basement into the bottom of the barrel.

Djin Blade - Combine with soul-trap and you can create possibly the only HQ in the game capable of instant-deathing himself. I'm not sure what particular issue that ability solves, but it's bound to solve something. Still a worthless piece of crap, and now even more expensive. yey...

Animus Vitae - Did this really need to be a special weapon, rather than just working with whatever weapon the model happens to be wielding? In my mind this weapon is 'special' in the same way that the kid eating paste is 'special'. Aside from needing to be a blast, this isn't too bad at the moment.

Personally, I'd like to see more 'solid' weapons (like the agonizer pre-6th) - rather than ones that might do something useful if it's exactly 6pm, on a Tuesday and your opponent is feeling generous.

It would certainly be nice if the Agoniser was allowed its AP2 back. It's more than a little irritating that an I8 Succubus is only allowed AP2 if she's willing to sacrifice 7 points of initiative! Well, 50% of this issue has been fixed.

- I'm also with the others who'd like options for our HQs to take Skyboards and Jetbikes.

- I'd also like to see Shadowfield changed, so that a failed save disables it for that phase - not for the rest of the game. Considering the crap other HQs can pull, this seems pretty reasonable. Alternatively, bring the damn thing down in price. Why is it that other armies have 4 wound T5 HQs who pay piddling amounts for 3++ saves, yet our T3 guy has to pay 2/3 of his base cost to get a 2++ save that disappears the first time it fails?



Also, a few points more relating to the current book:

- Please fix the Liquifier Gun and Hexrifle so that they're remotely worth a damn.

- Either make Wracks troops or give them the options to function as Elites (1 special weapon per 5 is what you expect in a troop choice - Elites should be looking at a 4/5 or 5/5 ratio).

- Give Hellions a purpose. Also, consider making them troops as well.

- Make Soulfright weapons work against models with ATSKNF. Otherwise just don't bother including them.

- Make wyches worth a damn. Perhaps base them off the current Harlequins? They might be a little on the expensive side, but at least they have something resembling functionality.

- Make our anti-psyker weapons actually effective against psykers - as opposed to just killing a random sod in their squad. Yeah, that'll learn 'em. Neutral

- Please come up with some new warlord traits. Ones that don't make me want to pay a visit to the design team with a cricket bat.

- If virtually every squad in our army is going to be minimum-5 and if most of them are going to have 1-special-weapon-per-5, then please make our transports 11 and 6 capacity.

- Make PfP more interactive and base it around counting casualties again (perhaps similar to the Blood Points mechanic in Daemonkin). The current PfP mechanic could be replaced by Dark Eldar getting a bonus based on their Archon's progress through filling out his tax returns.

- Please make our HQs useful. The Succubus is okay, but didn't deserve the 10pt increase. The Archon needs to be better in general - either better combat abilities or by having some support abilities. Possibly even both. Haemonculi aren't remotely worth their cost. Their support ability is abysmal (Archon fills out his taxes 7% faster!), and their combat abilities are even worse. I'd suggest giving them an ability like that of the Tech Priest Dominus - whereby they can forgo shooting to restore a wound to themselves or a model in their squad. But, if they're going to pay for stats that are only useful in combat, they also need to be good in combat. Some more useful weapons would go a long way. As would access to some protection - such as a Clone Field.



Well, that'll about do for now.
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 17:07

Okay off the top of my head here is some of my wishlist:

HQ:
-Succubus and Archons can take skyboards and Jetbikes. Succubus also gains acrobatic.
-Give us back the Baron, Decapitator, and Duke.

Troops/Elites:
-Hellions are now troop choices.
-Wyches units can once again charge on the same turn they deepstrike.
-Blood Brides get acrobatic.
-Disentegrator Cannons can now be taken as a heavy weapon option for Kabalites.
-Kabalites can take Heat Lances and Haywire Blasters.
-Trueborn can exchange their Splinter Rifles for Splinter Carbines.
-Decons can take Clone Fields
-Incubi get a special rule, Counter Charge, when charged both sides act if they had charged that turn.
-Incubi have plasma grenades.

Fast Attack:
-Venoms can change out the top mounted splinter cannon for a Disentegrator.
-Scourges get intercept
-Razorwing Jetfighter gets Vector Strike.

Heavy Support:
-Ravagers can take Void Lances.
-Ravagers can move their full movement and fire all of their weapons without penalty.
-Void Raven Bombers get back AV11
-Void Bomb is now strength D

Lord of War:
-Super Heavy Flyer that works as a Comms Relay, AV13, with twinlinked Void Lances and flickerfield. (Maybe a rule that any unit deepstriking within 6" of this flyer does not scatter.)

Items/Formations:
-New formation or item that guarantees nightfighting for three turns (or if they actually want to be kind to us, the entire game) [At least our night vision would have real purpose].
-Shadowfield reactivates after 2 turns.
-Splinter Cannons can be upgraded to have specialized poison rounds that wound Gargantuan Monsterous Creatures at (4+).
-Phantasm Grenades Ignore ATSKNF.
-Huskblade AP2.
-Shredder gains fleshbane and pinning.

Additions to what I originally posted.


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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 20:15

How could I forget?!

Of course, Archon can can have Jetbike or Skyboard.
I would be happy with no Baron, but the tool to make him by putting an Archon on a Skyboard.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 20:49

Funny, I just started making a just for fun codex this week. Never thought I'm ever going to post parts of it here xD

I think some changes are so self-evident that I will not mention them... (AP2 Huskblade, Str4/poison Liquifiers, Wyches charging in DS turn etc.).
And as a start I'd just bring back everything wargear related from 5th edition (especially the Soul-Trap).

General Changes:
- Low Orbit Raid special rule on Transports and Scourges to (half the scatter distance from deep striking).
- Means of Reserve Manipulation
- Change poison weapons to 5+ but reroll on T4 or less.
- An extra PFP table for kabalite units, focussing on ranged warfare (enhanced senses).

HQ:
- Every HQ that joins a squad can replace one of the models.
This also lowers the cost for the HQ by the replaced model. (no more transport problems...)
- Scourge Wings, Skyboards or at least the Reaver Jetbike. Give them some mobility!
- Archons can take every weapon they want and can each choose between Webway Portal, Archangel of Pain or a Night Creating Device.

Troops:
- Wyches have a special rending rule which does not work against vehicles.
Can buy net throwers to prevent Overwatch.
- Hellions are troops, have scout and can take haywire grenades.
- Sybarite/Dracons can take heavy weapons and have better BS.

Elite:
- Wracks get the Trueborn treatment and can take special wargear
- Incubi: Good old Blood Stones which forces a thoughness test on enemy units, if they fail, they can't overwatch.
- Mandrakes: Just look at the DE Homebrew thread. There you can see Mandrakes done right.
- Bloodbrides get the Trueborn treatment as well and have increased WS.

Heavy Support:
- FW Reaper becomes default and can change weapons for 3 Void Lances.
- Voidraven is 130 points and Void Mine is Str D
- Ravager costs 100
- I'm fond of the idea of Castigators, we should have them (twisted Wraithguards)

Fast Attack:
- Venoms (same as my pre posters, can take Dissies and Lances)

Wargear changes:
- Disintegrators are Heavy weapons
- Heat Lances are Special Weapons (Heat Lance Trueborn, yay)
- Poison is 5+ but you can make a reroll on everything T4 or less.
- All Lances are +1 str and AP1 (so they can achieve something at least)
- Ichor Injector as wargear option for Acothysts and Haemonculi
- Corrosive Acid Liquifier for Coven anti tank

Well, that's the most important stuff. Don't want to spam detailed changes.

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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 21:14

It is really interesting to see all the suggestions. Some thoughts:

-Characters with jetpack/jetbike is a great idea but we need some fluff for that. Why does an archon have a reaver-jetbike or a hellion-glider? Or make something that is neither of both and fits the characters fluff  a bit more.

-I guess a first step to fixing Wyches will be lowering their points costs. It can't be that they do less damage than for example Orks ( Orks get 1 more attack and have furious charge from the beginning if I remember correctly ) but cost 4 more points each. They also used to have deepstrikes assaults back in the day? Damn, why didn't they keep that, sounds really unique and fluffy to me.

-I think making Wracks Troops again is a nice idea, though I'd keep that to the Covens detachment.

-If huskblade and shadowfield are going to be buffed, consider giving the succubi something aswell, otherwise it will be like in the old codex where archons were basically the better succubi. I had the idea of making the archon a shooting and the succubus a fighting character, giving the archon some ranged options like in the main post.

-If the old Clone field is going to come back, we should probably make it also work out of combat. Don't know why that weren't implemented in the first place.

-I'd love it if they'd buff haemonculi. For that matter I think they should just make him a supporting character - with archons and succubi already filling the roles of fighting and shooting ( see above ).
Instead of giving them better profiles or weapons for example, you could give them the +1 PfP bubble Urien currently has and give them some supportive items. And of course, lower their point costs.

-The idea of making Hellions troops is great, actually. They don't shine as a fast attack choice because they only give stuff the required troops and HQ already grants - loads of anti-infantry and lots of LPs. This for one makes them fit there perfectly because they have both of those. The fast attack section is for other things that are limited to it and that you can't get elsewhere, which would be anti-air, anti-tank, and the high speed of jetbikes. Maybe beastpacks should get a simular treatment aswell. They aren't bad but they don't give what you want from fast attack aswell.

-Another thing is giving the DE ap2 cc weapons besides Incubi and Archite Glaives. I mean, it wouldn't even be as horrifying as on for example a captain or a warboss, because DE come with str3 and wouldn't deal much damage anyway. Just AP2 power swords would alredy make it for me.

-Probably just make shredders flamer templates instead of large blasts and give them pinning. Gives them a purpose unlike right now. The pinning aspect also fits the weapons fluff, firing a contracting monofilament web.

-Right now Dark Eldar are kind of a worse Craftworld Eldar clone. Think about it. They are both as fast, CE are more durable and have more damage though. Not only is this pretty unsettling from a balancing perspective, it also is pretty bad when considering that every army should have their own feel to it, which is not the case with DE and CE who basically use the same tactics.

Now here's my idea. First of all, we need damage. Shredder already pointed this aspect out pretty well. The other thing is to fix the lack of durability we have in contrary to our cousins from the craftworlds. For that manner I think that we should basically strip the DE from stuff that makes them more durable and make it so that it supports their glass cannon playstyle rather than their survivability to complement their unique glass cannon playstyle rather than keeping them as CR clones:
-night shields to what they used to be
-giving clone fields and shadow fields an offensive portion - shadowfield will emit a damaging bubble of dark energy if destroyed, clones from the clone field that aren't destroyed get to hit back for example
-changing the wyches' dodge ability to something more fitting. Their high initiative is an indicator that their purpose is to strike the enemy dead before he is able to hit them himself. The dodge-rule they have right now does not really complement this. Instead of fast killing units, that do a lot of damage, they are overpriced dodge-tanks. So here is my idea - rather than having a 4+ invun, for every attack the enemy misses against someone with the dodge special rule in close combat, the model with the dodge special rule will be granted an automatically hitting extra attack that hits immediately and before the enemy will attack with the attacks he hit himself. This keeps the slippery dodge-kind of idea of the wych fluff and also gives wyches more offensive capabilities and much needed damage.

So if we balanced out the damage advantage the CE have over us, how do we fix the durability problem without making us CE clones? The answer: More speed, even more than the CE have.
My idea for this would be the following:
The Commorite-Vehicle special rule. It makes it so that a vehicle with this rule can fire all its weapons at its full bf when moving at cruising speed, and every unit embarked upon it can fire all it weapons at full bf when moving at cruising speed. Units can also disembark from a unit with this special rule that is moving at cruising speed. Lastly, a vehicle with this special rule ignores effects of difficult and dangerous terrain.
I have to admit, this is massive. But much needed if you think about it. It would put DE on a level with other armies, complement their playstyle and withdraw them from the rest of the armies of the 40k universe, being the only one that would be able to be so fast and deal so much damage at the same time. Because right now they don't feel like it. Kabalites in Venoms and Raiders aren't fast by any means, at  least if they want to be effective itself. They move standard 6'' when they shoot, which does not make their playstyle any different from other shooty armies: stay back and shoot everything that comes close. Like this, it would be: pick target, focus fire, eliminate, reposition with 12'' movement, repeat. Melee DE armies on the other hand would also benefit greatly from this. Right now, if you were to get into assault range for next turn to attack the enemy, a lot of your units would get shot at and die and you are overly dependant on line of sight and cover to make that not happen. This way you can get in a more save position before attacking, because you have more assault range on everything embarked on your vehicles and you would be able to utilise line of sight and cover a lot better and easier. On top of that, you won't get immobilised by cover anymore, which is a big problem right now. On the one hand, as I said, you are overly dependent on cover because you are squishy, on the other hand you need your speed and having it taken from you with immobilised results is basically a sentence to do nothing the rest of the game. Like this, your own tactics are working against you - which they should not do. And the last justification for this actually very strong buff I'm suggesting here is the every other army is getting some aswell.

-Another thing I want to point out is how GW seems to be simplifying rules, and they should stop doing that in my opinion. If you look at the old PfP table it kind of made sense but the new Necron Codex for example is really dull and boring. Reanimation protocols aren't actually something that gets dead models back into the game but merely a boring FnP-save. I also haven't seen cryptecs for a while, which is sad because it was always fun to play against them. What happened to them? Did their rules get nerfed or simplified aswell?

-And to end this post, I want to ask why GW is so bad at balancing their game. I don't want to walk about that they do it but about why it is like that. I mean, with 25 years of game experience while being pretty much the only one in the tabletop market they should have gotten the point by now. Do the headquarters not care as much about the tabletop and more about the painting and other stuff? Are the headquarters just very conservative because they are old and disappointed that the game has changed so much? Do the headquarters pressure the actual playtesters and codex writers to make their job faster and better than they are able to or do they even try to save money on that point, having too little of them? Or even, worst case scenario, do they get blackmailed by the ones who own stock shares of GW to release everything so fast without testing it? I'd really like to find the cause of that problem instead of just ranting all the time so that we, as a community may be able to fix it at some point. We shouldn't underestimate our power as the ones who buy their products. As you can clearly see, we are probably better at writing codices than the ones at GW headquarters.


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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 21:17

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

- Every HQ that joins a squad can replace one of the models.
  This also lowers the cost for the HQ by the replaced model. (no more transport problems...)

I can't see this being particularly enticing.

"Ok, my Archon joins this trueborn squad during deployment, meaning I now get 11pts to spend. Pity I can't possibly use those points."
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 21:32

@The Shredder wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:

- Every HQ that joins a squad can replace one of the models.
  This also lowers the cost for the HQ by the replaced model. (no more transport problems...)

I can't see this being particularly enticing.

"Ok, my Archon joins this trueborn squad during deployment, meaning I now get 11pts to spend. Pity I can't possibly use those points."

Yeah, the way I wrote that was bad. I thought it was just a convenient way of wording to allow 4 Trueborn with an Archon in a Venom ^^

The main intend was that you declare that before the beginning of the game, so you basically only pay for 4 Trueborn. I wasn't supposed to be working during the game.

@Illumanatee

While I completely agree that Dark Eldar should have more bang for their buck, I primarily consider us a finesse army (death from a thousand cuts).
We need more speed, more possibilities to make fast and quick strikes, sabotage options, options to disrupt enemy support/reinforcements, charge the turn we DS, benefit better from positioning etc.

Basically anything to give us an edge on the battlefield without making us superior in stats.
.. and for Slaaneshes sake let us have a good anti-armor weapon.

Sure, Dark Glances can be nice against AV14... but below that? Aiming for rends with a scissorhand Abberation??

I think we should at least have weapons which always causes an effect from the vehicle damage table or similar to it (single D6 + 1 but no explosion). Weaken them, minimize backfire, focus them down and proceed to the next threat.

Or give us a corrosive acid Liquifier with extra strength against armor, so Coven gets a way to deal with vehicles as well.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Fri Jun 19 2015, 22:29

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:

- Every HQ that joins a squad can replace one of the models.
  This also lowers the cost for the HQ by the replaced model. (no more transport problems...)

I can't see this being particularly enticing.

"Ok, my Archon joins this trueborn squad during deployment, meaning I now get 11pts to spend. Pity I can't possibly use those points."

Yeah, the way I wrote that was bad. I thought it was just a convenient way of wording to allow 4 Trueborn with an Archon in a Venom ^^

The main intend was that you declare that before the beginning of the game, so you basically only pay for 4 Trueborn. I wasn't supposed to be working during the game.

I think it would just mess things up a bit too much.

For some reason it puts me in mind of the crops in Mort (Preannuals IIRC), which are reaped the year before you plant them.  Razz

@Illumanatee wrote:
It is really interesting to see all the suggestions. Some thoughts:

-Characters with jetpack/jetbike is a great idea but we need some fluff for that. Why does an archon have a reaver-jetbike or a hellion-glider? Or make something that is neither of both and fits the characters fluff  a bit more.

Possibly he just prefers them to a Venom or Raider?

Or maybe Space Top Gear popularised them. Very Happy

@Illumanatee wrote:

-If huskblade and shadowfield are going to be buffed, consider giving the succubi something aswell, otherwise it will be like in the old codex where archons were basically the better succubi. I had the idea of making the archon a shooting and the succubus a fighting character, giving the archon some ranged options like in the main post.

I think the Archon really does need to have better melee options, regardless of his shooting options. It really doesn't fit his fluff if his melee weapons are all scavenged from a bin. Wink

In terms of buffing the Succubus, I'd suggest making her standard damage output better. Also, I think she should have something similar to Lelith's rule - whereby she becomes incredibly dangerous in a challenge. Seems about right for an arena combatant.

@Illumanatee wrote:

-I'd love it if they'd buff haemonculi. For that matter I think they should just make him a supporting character - with archons and succubi already filling the roles of fighting and shooting ( see above ).
Instead of giving them better profiles or weapons for example, you could give them the +1 PfP bubble Urien currently has and give them some supportive items. And of course, lower their point costs.

To be honest, I think they should have that bubble anyway (though I'd rather we had a different pfp mechanic to begin with - so their exact buff may depend on that).

I think they could perhaps be made decent jack-of-all-trades units. Some decent shooting/melee options, but nothing that will outclass the Archon or Succubus. One possibility would be giving them the option of support weapons. e.g. give them a gun that reduces enemy cover or armour saves, or a melee weapon that reduces their toughness. So, the idea is that the Haemonculus literally softens them up, and then your other units take advantage of that to do the actual damage.

That's just off the top of my head though, so sorry if it's a silly idea.

@Illumanatee wrote:

-Right now Dark Eldar are kind of a worse Craftworld Eldar clone. Think about it. They are both as fast, CE are more durable and have more damage though. Not only is this pretty unsettling from a balancing perspective, it also is pretty bad when considering that every army should have their own feel to it, which is not the case with DE and CE who basically use the same tactics.

Now here's my idea. First of all, we need damage. Shredder already pointed this aspect out pretty well. The other thing is to fix the lack of durability we have in contrary to our cousins from the craftworlds. For that manner I think that we should basically strip the DE from stuff that makes them more durable and make it so that it supports their glass cannon playstyle rather than their survivability to complement their unique glass cannon playstyle rather than keeping them as CR clones:
-night shields to what they used to be
-giving clone fields and shadow fields an offensive portion - shadowfield will emit a damaging bubble of dark energy if destroyed, clones from the clone field that aren't destroyed get to hit back for example

Honestly, I'm not sure we need to become any softer. It would be nice if our characters might actually survive a battle they participate in - rather than being added to the waiting list for haemonculus-mediated resurrection. Wink

That being said, I do love the idea of the Clones from Clone Field getting to attack. That would make my day. Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Sat Jun 20 2015, 00:28

@Illumanatee wrote:

-Characters with jetpack/jetbike is a great idea but we need some fluff for that. Why does an archon have a reaver-jetbike or a hellion-glider? Or make something that is neither of both and fits the characters fluff  a bit more.

You aren't just born an Archon, you fight your way to the top. That means that as some point they were a kabalite, hellions, Reavers, pilot, ect. So why wouldn't an Archon that was a Reaver when he was younger not have a preference for a Jetbike. Why wouldn't a Succubus who might have been a Hellion before joining the Wych Cults not want to go back to their early days and ride one?

Look at Vect, he went from a slave, became a Kabalite and ultimately became the most powerful Archon in Commorragh.
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Sat Jun 20 2015, 09:40

Lots of good ideas here, thought I'd share a few of my own.

Make shredders template weapons. They already have too short a range to be useful as a regular blast, so this would not be a huge overhaul. It would however result in a lot more hits, it might warrant either a decrease in strength or an increase in points cost.

Bring back 5++ for Mandrakes. Speaks for itself, really.

A mechanic for the raider that allows it to move cruising speed (12") and have the embarked unit fire at full BS. It gives back the speed aspect of the DE, and makes it viable as THE gunboat for our army, giving it a chance to compete with venoms ( who don't get that ability). It's fluffy, it's usefull, and adds balance plus theme to a unit not on the table often enough.

Helions need something, but I don't know what. They are simply useless atm. Maybe make them super cheap? They are meant to be simple street thugs after all.

Voidraven bomber point drop, speaks for itself.

Archon points drop. Besides, I see a lot of comments mentioning he needs improved cc ability (e.g. Husk blade ap2). I don't think that is appropriate, fluff wise he really is just a commander who stands behind his army. If you don't like that, succubi and haemonculi are what you are looking for. With that role in mind, however, he does not justify his point cost.

Either give wyches dodge during over watch, or allow them to have a banshee mask type upgrade. Throw in some other special rule, like counterattack or rampage, and I will field them. Also, no haywire grenades! It simply doesn't make sense, and it sounds like a lot of you are asking for them simply because that is how you ran them in the previous edition. Don't get stuck in the past (this also counts with all the clamour to get back the special characters).

Higher weapon skill on incubi. I don't know what. It is off the top of my head, but it can't be high enough. It certainly needs to be higher or similar to the archon's.

Swap the +1A for trueborn for +1BS.

I feel like a lot of our apocalypse formation should be usable in normal games (storm of blades, stormsurge). Or just come up with new formations.

Detachment for a wych cult army, where kabalite units count as elite choices (making wyches the only available troops) and succubi are necessary as hq. Detachment for a kabal army, where wyches count as elites and archons are necessary as hq. Give both some appropriate bonus and your good to go.

Seperate warlord traits for archon's and succubi, to emphasise the strategic role of the former and the close combat madness of the latter. If you look at the current one, it's easy to see that rule writers attempted to squeeze these two themes into one table. Which is why we have threads debating which table to role on.

The two points above leave the covens supplement to be its own thing. So essentially there are three types of dark eldar armies. If the players insists on a mix, there is always the CAD.

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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Sat Jun 20 2015, 11:54

@chickendinner
The issue with the Huskblade in its current form is that it's the answer to a non-existant question.

On the Archon it already has only Str3, meaning 5s to hit marines. Now, but which juicy multi-wounded target really is AP3? With ID you want to aim for killing stuff like Paladins (2W TEQs), since the strength of the weapon is very low to begin with.

Btw. in previous editions it used to be AP2 as well and nobody complained too.
The weapon in its current form simply does not justify the 25 points cost.

And I think the Shredder should be template weapon as well. However, I would already be happy if Liquifiers would actually do a sh** and 4 out of 5 Wracks can takem, similar to Blasters on Trueborn.

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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Sat Jun 20 2015, 12:02

You know, I'm starting to find all this rather offensive.

I mean, none of you asked me if I wanted to be a template weapon. Maybe being a Blast is just my lifestyle choice, you shapeists.

I expect a little more consideration in future.
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Sat Jun 20 2015, 12:15

Valid point about the Huskblade, I haven't considered that perspective. I still think Archons should not be close combat oriented, and would be ok with it remaining AP2. However 25pts is a joke. It feels like GW just looked at power sword costs from other codices and decided to treat the huskblade the same way, not realizing that space marine captains have much more use for it that st3 Archons.
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Sat Jun 20 2015, 12:24

I don't see why Archons shouldn't be melee-oriented, tbh.

I'm not against having options for, say, shooty Archons, but it seems like at least some Archons would be very deadly in combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Wishlisting   Sat Jun 20 2015, 15:24

@chickendinner wrote:
Helions need something, but I don't know what. They are simply useless atm. Maybe make them super cheap? They are meant to be simple street thugs after all.

I think the suggestion many people have made about making them troops is a decent answer for them. Craftworld Eldar have Windriders as troops, Hellions could be our fast moving, not on transports, troop choice. They are thugs as stated by you after all.

Quote :
Archon points drop. Besides, I see a lot of comments mentioning he needs improved cc ability (e.g. Husk blade ap2). I don't think that is appropriate, fluff wise he really is just a commander who stands behind his army. If you don't like that, succubi and haemonculi are what you are looking for. With that role in mind, however, he does not justify his point cost.

I agree he isn't justified at his point cost but I don't agree that the Huskblade should not recieve AP2 and that he shouldn't be able to be made into a CC unit. Archons come from many walks of life before they reach where they are. Many are also ancient and eccentric. I can see an Archon choosing to stride into battle just to feel his blade cut through someone as I can see him sitting on his raider basking in the slaughter. To me, while the Archons know how to play the long game of politics and strategy I can see many of them giving into whims and building their plans around that current urge.

Quote :
Either give wyches  dodge during over watch, or allow them to have a banshee mask type upgrade. Throw in some other special rule, like counterattack or rampage, and I will field them. Also, no haywire grenades! It simply doesn't make sense, and it sounds like a lot of you are asking for them simply because that is how you ran them in the previous edition. Don't get stuck in the past (this also counts with all the clamour to get back the special characters).

I don't like the idea of them getting the banshee mask, truthfully they aren't that bad stat wise for their points and I don't want them to become a banshee nock off with less armor. I do agree with you on the haywire grenades, I think that is overkill on standard wyches but I wouldn't mind them being a choice for Bloodbrides who are an elite choice that we never see.

As for the "stuck in the past" when it comes to the special characters, why shouldn't be have them in our book? They add a bit of fluff to an army and can be ignored if you don't want to field them.

Quote :
Detachment for a wych cult army, where kabalite units count as elite choices (making wyches the only available troops) and succubi are necessary as hq. Detachment for a kabal army, where wyches count as elites and archons are necessary as hq. Give both some appropriate bonus and your good to go.

Why do this? why would I take wyches as elites instead of Blood Brides or take Kabalite Warriors as elites instead of trueborn. I know that there is a cost difference but it doesn't make sense to me. The formations, if based on theme should be like the Coven and just focus on you using Cult or Kabal units, giving them advantages, not having troop choices being made into elite choices.

Quote :
The two points above leave  the covens supplement to be its own thing. So essentially there are three types of dark eldar armies. If the players insists on a mix, there is always the CAD.

With you placing Kabalites warriors and Wyches as elite choices for the Cult formations and Kabal Formations aren't you in some way insisting on them being mixed as well and not having them be distinct?

If I come off as hostile that isn't my intent I'm only trying to discuss some of the concepts and points you are making. My own list needs some work and might seem questionable to others who read it and I welcome discussion on anything I've said.
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