HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Grotesquerie help

Go down 
AuthorMessage
Hellstrom
Wych
avatar

Posts : 515
Join date : 2014-11-24
Location : South Central England

PostSubject: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 13:48

I've just started running this formation and it appears to be completely terrible. Can someone tell me how they actually get it to work please?

I'm running 2 raiders with sails and NS, each with 4 Grots in and I'm boosting across the table towards a suitable target turn 1. By the time I get to my turn 2, both boats are popped and my Grots are either wiped out completely, or have a couple of models left. Useless to charge anything.

I just don't understand how you guys are getting something with just a 5+ fnp save, to survive any kind of shooting .....
Back to top Go down
The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2501
Join date : 2012-01-16
Location : Rutland - UK

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 14:01

I know some use full size squads and WWP them in instead of putting them on raiders. What is shooting at them, cos at T5 most normal weaponry will struggle to hurt them much unless it's in hideous quantities.

_________________
Tan? You're joking, I'm a gamer, you're lucky I'm wearing deodorant!

My Blog - The Burning Eye Blog (check it out - comments always welcome)

My Project Log - Visions of the Burning Eye

My Gaming Log - Chronicles of the Burning Eye

My Club - MAD Wargaming

My Fluff - Kabal of the Burning Eye, Cult of the Shadowed Blade and Coven of Distorted Perfection
Back to top Go down
http://theburningeye.blogspot.com
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 7188
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 14:15

Firstly, you need to pick isolated targets so that, even when the Raider is destroyed, the Grots aren't looking down the barrels of an entire armies guns.

Secondly, try to use them in tandem with other units. A Dark Artisans unit with a WWP can DS in near to the Grots target and add +1 to their FNP rule, and also draw fire from them.

I used a Grotesquerie last night against a Necron Decurion and they took out a unit of Wraiths, 2 units of Warriors and were about to murder a unit of Immortals when the game ended. All this for no casualties (although I'll admit that one unit was Invisible for most of the game).

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
mightydoughnut
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 247
Join date : 2015-05-06

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 15:07

Using Grotesquerie requiers some skill and good positioning - your best bet is rushing across the board, aiming for a turn 1 charge - the best way to protect them from shooting is by being caught in CC. You should also take note of which enemy units can shoot at your grots - if you are rushing gun lines that can ID them, you are doing wrong. I also don't quite grasp what do you mean by "any kind of shooting" - grots can take a real pounding, due to their high T, 3 Wounds and FNP. What exactly did you run into that it managed to kill 4 Grots and I assume, a HQ that was hanging around with them?

TL DR: The key to good work with them is positioning and picking the right targets.

_________________
http://warlockpurple.tumblr.com - my wargaming blog
Back to top Go down
http://www.warlockpurple.tumblr.com
CptMetal
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2922
Join date : 2015-03-03
Location : Ruhr Metropolian Area

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 15:12

If the enemy concentrates all his fire power to take down your Raider (don't forget your night shield enhanced jink save) and two units of grotesques with toughness 5, your other stuff is save. Perhaps those units even have feel no pain 4+ or toughness 6 due to the formation special rule.

To be honest, it seems you are too reckless. Remember that you aren't playing space Marines. You need to take cover and use line of sight blocking terrain.
Back to top Go down
Hellstrom
Wych
avatar

Posts : 515
Join date : 2014-11-24
Location : South Central England

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 16:15

I'm just trying to get them in range of a sensible unit to assault. Even 10 marines shooting bolters will kill a Grot on average. I have to add, my local club is hugely lacking in LOS terrain, so I very rarely get any cover saves or am able to block shots from the rest of the army that's shooting at me.

We have several Eldar players and a couple of Marines who use Tig to cast ignore cover onto Devastator squads. Str9 ap2 twin linked ignore cover shots tend to kill anything they want. This may change with the new Marine codex, as the have lost the ability to make them relentless now though.


CptMetal, you say it's good for the enemy to be shooting the Grots, but if I lose them, I'm down 600 points worth of stuff ... and I'm from the UK, so we only really play 1500 point games. That's a very large percentage to lose on turn 1 before it's actually managed to even get into combat with anything.
Back to top Go down
mightydoughnut
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 247
Join date : 2015-05-06

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 16:19

What is the typical size of the board you play on?

_________________
http://warlockpurple.tumblr.com - my wargaming blog
Back to top Go down
http://www.warlockpurple.tumblr.com
Hellstrom
Wych
avatar

Posts : 515
Join date : 2014-11-24
Location : South Central England

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 16:30

6x4, always.
Back to top Go down
mightydoughnut
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 247
Join date : 2015-05-06

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 16:53

Of what? Meters? Feet?

_________________
http://warlockpurple.tumblr.com - my wargaming blog
Back to top Go down
http://www.warlockpurple.tumblr.com
Unholyllama
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 267
Join date : 2013-08-27

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 17:32

@Hellstrom wrote:
I'm just trying to get them in range of a sensible unit to assault.  Even 10 marines shooting bolters will kill a Grot on average.  I have to add, my local club is hugely lacking in LOS terrain, so I very rarely get any cover saves or am able to block shots from the rest of the army that's shooting at me.

We have several Eldar players and a couple of Marines who use Tig to cast ignore cover onto Devastator squads.  Str9 ap2 twin linked ignore cover shots tend to kill anything they want.  This may change with the new Marine codex, as the have lost the ability to make them relentless now though.


CptMetal, you say it's good for the enemy to be shooting the Grots, but if I lose them, I'm down 600 points worth of stuff ... and I'm from the UK, so we only really play 1500 point games.  That's a very large percentage to lose on turn 1 before it's actually managed to even get into combat with anything.

Reading this, there's a few items that came into my mind as possible tactical suggestions. These suggestions aren't necessarily cumulative with each other.

1. Keep both units in close proximity to each other. If both units are going after separate units, keeping them relatively together may help 1 of the 2 get through.

2. Along with #1, use them only on the wide flanks. With Aethersails, the grots can move into position quickly; however, if they are too far away when deployed on a far flank, that's ok, it just means that you'll probably be within 18-24" of a target for a solid turn 2 assault. Keeping them on the flank reduces their immediate threat need and may draw less fire. The other benefit to being on the wide flank is your closest target will probably be relatively isolated compared to something at mid-field. (I'd recommend scissor hands on the Aberrations to account for vehicles being your closest target).

3. What other models do you run with your army? Have you accompanies a unit of Grots with a Shadowfield Archon? Doing such will give you a 2++ save to hopefully absorb some of the shoot once the Raiders drop.

4. Reduce your points and treat them AS just a sacrificial distraction unit. Instead of 4x2, take 3x2 in Raiders with Sails but nothing else. Fly forward with them so that they are in your opponent's face turn 1. Even a unit of 3 of them is dangerous in close combat so they'll draw fire, allowing you use the rest of your army to get into position in other ways. The formations Haemy can also be in a different unit and will give them Fearless starting on turn 2 since that specific Haemy will be on the coven PFP table instead of the normal one. Also - the haemy comes with the Fickle Spectacle rule too which isn't much but can help.

When you have that much firepower pointed in your direction that ignores cover, it's never an easy battle; however, I think there's some strategies that could be useful for it. If not, downgrade it to minimum points and play it as a distraction.
Back to top Go down
Hellstrom
Wych
avatar

Posts : 515
Join date : 2014-11-24
Location : South Central England

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 19:12

@mightydoughnut wrote:
Of what? Meters? Feet?

Feet .......... Like the standard 40k table size ......

Meters ?? Wtf.
Back to top Go down
Hellstrom
Wych
avatar

Posts : 515
Join date : 2014-11-24
Location : South Central England

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 19:22

@Unholyllama wrote:
@Hellstrom wrote:
I'm just trying to get them in range of a sensible unit to assault.  Even 10 marines shooting bolters will kill a Grot on average.  I have to add, my local club is hugely lacking in LOS terrain, so I very rarely get any cover saves or am able to block shots from the rest of the army that's shooting at me.

We have several Eldar players and a couple of Marines who use Tig to cast ignore cover onto Devastator squads.  Str9 ap2 twin linked ignore cover shots tend to kill anything they want.  This may change with the new Marine codex, as the have lost the ability to make them relentless now though.


CptMetal, you say it's good for the enemy to be shooting the Grots, but if I lose them, I'm down 600 points worth of stuff ... and I'm from the UK, so we only really play 1500 point games.  That's a very large percentage to lose on turn 1 before it's actually managed to even get into combat with anything.

Reading this, there's a few items that came into my mind as possible tactical suggestions.  These suggestions aren't necessarily cumulative with each other.

1. Keep both units in close proximity to each other.  If both units are going after separate units, keeping them relatively together may help 1 of the 2 get through.  

2. Along with #1, use them only on the wide flanks.  With Aethersails, the grots can move into position quickly; however, if they are too far away when deployed on a far flank, that's ok, it just means that you'll probably be within 18-24" of a target for a solid turn 2 assault.  Keeping them on the flank reduces their immediate threat need and may draw less fire.  The other benefit to being on the wide flank is your closest target will probably be relatively isolated compared to something at mid-field.  (I'd recommend scissor hands on the Aberrations to account for vehicles being your closest target).

3. What other models do you run with your army?  Have you accompanies a unit of Grots with a Shadowfield Archon?  Doing such will give you a 2++ save to hopefully absorb some of the shoot once the Raiders drop.

4. Reduce your points and treat them AS just a sacrificial distraction unit.  Instead of 4x2, take 3x2 in Raiders with Sails but nothing else.  Fly forward with them so that they are in your opponent's face turn 1.  Even a unit of 3 of them is dangerous in close combat so they'll draw fire, allowing you  use the rest of your army to get into position in other ways.  The formations Haemy can also be in a different unit and will give them Fearless starting on turn 2 since that specific Haemy will be on the coven PFP table instead of the normal one.  Also - the haemy comes with the Fickle Spectacle rule too which isn't much but can help.

When you have that much firepower pointed in your direction that ignores cover, it's never an easy battle; however, I think there's some strategies that could be useful for it.  If not, downgrade it to minimum points and play it as a distraction.


Some excellent ideas here. Thank you very much.

I don't like assault, mostly because I've never really managed to get it to work for more than 1 game, so this Grotesquerie is just the last way of trying to get a bit more variance into my lists. Based on this, I don't have a CC Archon and tend to just use the Haemy as ablative wounds (and to help pass wounds around too). Maybe I'll try an Archon with ShadowField, 40 points just seems very expensive to me. That's nearly another Venom Wink

Fearless is already turn 2 by the way. The Haemy would make them fearless on Turn 1, but I don't see the need for that at all.
Back to top Go down
mightydoughnut
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 247
Join date : 2015-05-06

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 19:43

I use metric system in my country, if we measure Warhammer tables, we use inches, as feet are impractical, that's why I asked. Sorry for trying to help you, I guess.

You should consider how you are deploying - shorter border deployment means longer board, so you might have a problem with getting them into turn one charge. There is a little bit of a trick with a Raider - pivoting is not movement, so you put them sideways, touching the border of your deployment zone - if you pivot it into standard position before moving then, you gain extra inch or two - while it may not change much, sometime that one inch can decide if a charge works or not. Abuse the hell out of 6' disembarking move, as this allows you to move 12 inches (6 from raider, then 6 for disembarking) and then charge at something in several inches range.

Gotta say, a lot depends on what you are fielding alongside your Grotesques - are they your only units on board turn one? Are your opponents are more shooting or close combat oriented? If you are mainly facing gun lines, it might be a better idea to add a WWP to your HQ choices than can hang around with them and drop them deep in enemy territory, in a Raider - that way you get some cover from fire when you need, as you won't scatter thanks to WWP. Some players like to take a Nightmare Doll on a Haemy, so he can suck out some shooting, as he benefits from 5/6 T from majority rule.

_________________
http://warlockpurple.tumblr.com - my wargaming blog
Back to top Go down
http://www.warlockpurple.tumblr.com
dumpeal
Wych
avatar

Posts : 877
Join date : 2015-02-13
Location : Québec

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 21:01

"Desertic" planet board is always difficult to dark eldar. Our army is designed to dance from cover to cover, LoSB to LoSB. Without it, a standard frontal charge won't work, even with our toughest units that are only as tough as "average" ennemy unit.

But, to put every chances on your side, it's as unhollyllama said: Attack from a flank to limit the amount of fire you get.
Back to top Go down
1++
Hekatrix


Posts : 1036
Join date : 2011-06-27
Location : Sydney

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 22:06

I'm loving big squads brought in via webway. You can arrive straight in cover as you're multi wound they can take the Dangerous Tests no problem. And when It Will Not Die kicks in you get a chance at getting that wound back.

Also the formation unit size is that of your choosing. You can run 3/4 in a Raider, and run 8-10 with attached webway carrier. Hold back the Raider squad until the Deepstrikers arrive, then flat out in their direction setting up an all mighty assault on your enemy. He'll love it. You'll love it!!

_________________
"I'm alive from this pain!"
Back to top Go down
Hellstrom
Wych
avatar

Posts : 515
Join date : 2014-11-24
Location : South Central England

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Thu Jun 18 2015, 23:49

From what I've read from you guys, I think I just need more terrain ... or not use them I guess.  Mostly I play against gunlines.  I don't have a problem getting the raiders into position, I just have difficulty keeping them alive long enough to actually make the charge.

Some units just don't work in some meta's right? Similarly Reavers are completely terrible in my local meta, SMS spam just means they die without a save as soon as I get within 36" of the enemy.
Back to top Go down
ligolski
Wych
avatar

Posts : 556
Join date : 2012-12-02

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Fri Jun 19 2015, 00:18

I've never had problems getting my grots to live through marine barrages unless my dice are as cold as ice for getting some FNPs through. The key is to jink and hide for your life. Buy loaded dice. Sometimes its just luck, but usually my grotesquerie goes on a murder spree unless it finds itself being hit on by an entire tables worth of dakka and I can't make a save/fnp for the life of me. Don't forget about night fight as well as that will improve your chances if that's on. Even a 6+ cover is better than nothing (facing a lot of ignores cover though is just rough, i get it but that's usually just one squad from Marines...though that may change with the new codex!).

_________________
Mod-Read the Rules of TDC

Archon Atersol of the Kabal of the Ebbing Sun
Back to top Go down
Gazbal
Slave


Posts : 21
Join date : 2013-07-25

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Fri Jun 19 2015, 01:23

I do have to briefly agree with Hellstrom, if only to let you know that you are not alone!

Grots sound great in theory but I play against a friend of mine who plays Necrons/Tau unbound.

I have found that the Talos is a better option for melee. Even with all the saves and re-rolls that necrons get, Talos (and the Dark artisan formation) can deal some wounds and are durable enough to not take wounds back.

If you use the dark artisan formation and via web way portal, your can avoid the footslog into a withering hail of gunfire which you are trying to avoid.

Even so - you will need there to be some terrain. If there are less than 2 line of sight blocking buildings (even if they are small) then I object.

Remember that every game has 2 players and you are both there to have fun.
Anyone who will only play against you on planet bowling ball is stacking the deck and only there to have fun at your expense.
Back to top Go down
CptMetal
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2922
Join date : 2015-03-03
Location : Ruhr Metropolian Area

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Fri Jun 19 2015, 04:43

I really don't like playing on planet bowling ball. It's not fun and your friends should really get more terrain. Look at the white dwarf battle reports. That is the minimum amount of terrain...
Back to top Go down
Sinister
Slave
avatar

Posts : 13
Join date : 2015-01-15

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Fri Jun 19 2015, 05:05

^^^^ Agree to a minimum amount of terrain. People with gun lines have a vested interest in you having as little to hide behind as possible.

Otherwise, WWP and DSing raiders are probably going to be your bread and butter, as long as you can find terrain to hide behind on their side of the board to not get focus fired to death on the turn you DS.

Rushing an IG / Tau gun line is exactly what gun line armies want and if that player has ever faced a Grot squad before, they would be smart to focus fire them first. Grots are our version of D-Scythe Wraithguard and Ivan Drago. Pretty much whatever they hit, they destroy.
Back to top Go down
Hellstrom
Wych
avatar

Posts : 515
Join date : 2014-11-24
Location : South Central England

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Fri Jun 19 2015, 09:24

I've got a load of foam and I'll be taking that and using it as LOS terrain for my next few games. Let's see what that does Smile
Back to top Go down
Trystis
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-12-01

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Fri Jun 19 2015, 09:50

@Hellstrom wrote:
I've got a load of foam and I'll be taking that and using it as LOS terrain for my next few games.  Let's see what that does Smile

I don't know if that will make your grotesques better, but it should definitely make your game more fun. Planet bowling ball is very terrible.
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 7188
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   Fri Jun 19 2015, 10:10

Agreed, and I think most tactics/advice will generally assume that there's a reasonable amount of terrain on the table. Lack of terrain hurts us really badly so you should always insist on as much terrain as possible. Bring some with you if you need to!

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Grotesquerie help   

Back to top Go down
 
Grotesquerie help
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Drukhari Tactics
-
Jump to: