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 Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Wed Jun 17 2015, 15:55

Just as a thought to countering this (and there are plenty of other formations available to marines to make good lists that I don't think you'll see everyone using it), what do you good people think to, wait for it, Mandrakes...

used as a cheap buffer squad they'll provide cover to anything trying to shoot through them (provided you've placed things appropriately) and will force the assault marines to charge them instead (again, if you've placed them right the AM won't be able to go round your buffer unit. Wracks would work similarly, albeit less effective cos they won't have the 2+/3+/4+ cover save.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Wed Jun 17 2015, 17:55

We don't really need a full codex update tho, All we really need is a Commorite Streets supplement that makes hellions troops, gives Wyches protection from overwatch as well as maybe better wych weapon stats, and a few non-coven formations.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Wed Jun 17 2015, 18:17

@amorrowlyday wrote:
We don't really need a full codex update tho, All we really need is a Commorite Streets supplement that makes hellions troops, gives Wyches protection from overwatch as well as maybe better wych weapon stats, and a few non-coven formations.

Yes, I think the right formations could make things much better alreeady.
I am still hoping for an epic "Kabal of the Black Heart" formation / book :/

... I really feel like they had some cool formations and ideas planned but cut everything interesting from our dex, salvaged whatever ideas they had for other Codexes and gave no interesting options so we'd have to buy the Haemonculus Supplement...

Quote :
"As such the Kabal boasts a great many Reavers, Razorwing Jetfighters and Voidraven
Bombers, and competition is fierce to claim the first blood spilt in any raid. The Flayed Skull
once famously conquered the world of Thrandium without a single Kabalite setting foot upon
the ground."

I am reading this and get an impression how many useful and flavourful formations we could have gotten.
And if you look at the Coven books, all formations could have easily been part of the main book as well.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Wed Jun 17 2015, 19:42

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
The codex already has reached its ceiling... there is no undiscovered hidden OP. The next (forced) step is to ally in Eldar which will be followed by "replace your remaining Dark Eldar with Eldar and call it a day"

Amen Brother.


And to give a big fix to our codex? Allow charges from webway, Give wyches back haywire, give the arcon an AP2 weapon (or the venomblade), give mandrakes the Demon rule, and for gods sake, let an arcon or haemi ride a freaking bike!

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Wed Jun 17 2015, 23:45

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
The current Dark Eldar meta revolves around "use your best units, preferable in formations for additional boni, try to find good synergies and outplay your opponent to stand a chance against his ragtag fluff army". The codex already has reached its ceiling... there is no undiscovered hidden OP. The next (forced) step is to ally in Eldar which will be followed by "replace your remaining Dark Eldar with Eldar and call it a day"

This is absolutely true.  It's to the point now where it's gotten comical how much more powerful the recent releases are than the Dark Eldar 7th edition codex.  I actually burst out laughing when I read about the Skyhammer formation and the other one that lets Marines take FREE (objective secured!) vehicles.  To say nothing of Decurion and Eldar formation shenanigans.  Increasingly, it seems like if your army's codex came out before the new Necron codex, you're playing a different game than those that came out post-Necron.
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kidfist0
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Thu Jun 18 2015, 08:42

@Skulnbonz wrote:


Amen Brother.


And to give a big fix to our codex? Allow charges from webway, Give wyches back haywire, give the arcon an AP2 weapon (or the venomblade), give mandrakes the Demon rule, and for gods sake, let an arcon or haemi ride a freaking bike!

A few points, i think allowing a unit to deepstrike without scatter and then charge would be a bit OP. How about youve got the option, deep strike without scatter and can only shoot, or go for a risky drop that scatters but you can assault?

I dont have a problem with wyches not all having haywire as long as they actually have a use performing other jobs. As it stands they do nothing well.

And yes, yes, thrice yes, archons, succubi and perhaps haemis should have had mount options for bikes and skyboards. If i could field a succubus on a skyboard id actually dig my 20 hellions out of storage.

And to address they main point of the thread. The problem i have with the skyhammer is not that i think its unbeatable, as many have said, there are ways to counter it. Its that, to me, its yet another indication of GW either not understanding or not caring what their game IS.
Fair play to you guys wishing for a new book to drop soon to bring us up to speed, but i dont WANT to be brought up to speed if what we get is more ridiculous game-breaking carp.
Something above the level of what we got, but far below the level of whats recently been released would be nice, but that would leave a salty taste in the mouth until the level of the OP books gets brought down again. And then the merry-go-round can start all over again.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Thu Jun 18 2015, 09:23

Quote :
Fair play to you guys wishing for a new book to drop soon to bring us up to speed, but i dont WANT to be brought up to speed if what we get is more ridiculous game-breaking carp.

If everybody has gamebreaking OP stuff, than actually nobody has.
It is called asymetric balance and actually works out in a lot of games.

Wraithknight is too cheap? Compared to us and a lot of pre-necron books, yes.
But now imagine it against against the new all-grav space marines and suddenly it becomes pretty balanced as it is not really hard to kill if you hit it on 3 (and may reroll), wound it on 3 (and may reroll) and shell out 20 shots.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Thu Jun 18 2015, 09:38

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
Fair play to you guys wishing for a new book to drop soon to bring us up to speed, but i dont WANT to be brought up to speed if what we get is more ridiculous game-breaking carp.

If everybody has gamebreaking OP stuff, than actually nobody has.
It is called asymetric balance and actually works out in a lot of games.

Wraithknight is too cheap? Compared to us and a lot of pre-necron books, yes.
But now imagine it against against the new all-grav space marines and suddenly it becomes pretty balanced as it is not really hard to kill if you hit it on 3 (and may reroll), wound it on 3 (and may reroll) and shell out 20 shots.

Yeah, thats great, and games will last 2 turns as everyones stuff just drops a-bombs everywhere and everythings dead in no time.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Thu Jun 18 2015, 10:19

Survivability also has gone up for the newest books. So its basically eradicating all threats for 2 turns and then it resumes to a more moderate troops vs troops.
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Thu Jun 18 2015, 12:04

@kidfist0 wrote:
Fair play to you guys wishing for a new book to drop soon to bring us up to speed, but i dont WANT to be brought up to speed if what we get is more ridiculous game-breaking carp.
When game breaking carp meets reality
Sorry I could not help myself.
I'm pretty sure that will be close to what we get for a LOW if GW ever makes one for us.
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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Fri Jun 19 2015, 02:12


Ahem!


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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Fri Jun 19 2015, 12:05

*scrolls to the top to read he thread name... Oh right.

My initial thought to counter this was to go with an extreme MSU build and deploy as many things on the board as possible. But if my army is facing a full out pod list I fear that there won't be a lot left after this and a couple of other pods hit. I'm not sure if there are limitations to how you can kit the formation out but if you take locator beacons on the pods, the jump marines will not scatter within 6" of the pod? So it will be pretty likely that they will be able to charge whatever they want. If we assume that they come down in full 10 man units that combat squad, I'm pretty certain they will be able to clear/cripple up to 8 chaff units with this formation alone. I can't be hiding in in my boats because of flamers on the assault squads, and I can't be relying on armored units because, let's face it, the devs will be toting grav cannons. Basically either setting up an elf themed shooting gallery or risk getting tabled turn one.
So what can stand up to grav and does not fold to jump marines in CC?

Idea#1: Mandrakes. No armor save and good cover? Oh wait flamers. But still, maybe let three small units infiltrate scattered around the board to make a tabling less likely?  Leave som reavers close to your table edge corners to make the pods more likely to scatter off if he goes for them, and kabalites, reavers and ravenwings in reserves? This probably needs to be dual CAD so maybe not for everyone.

Idea#2: Grots. grav won't even tickle them and they can take it on the chin from the assault marines without becoming useless. Deploy them outside the raider and use it to give cover from the shooting and block the assault if it survives. Maybe two units? One in each corner as before. Make sure there are as few objective markers as possible in your deployment zone so they won't get anything for free by dropping in there.

Idea#3: The corpse thief claw layered cake formation. A bunched up CTC surrounded by a circle or double semi circle of jet bikes to give a cover save against the grav. Whatever survives multi assaults everything it can and grind those marines down to delicious victory point potions. You probably want the objective markers close this time.

What do you think?
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Fri Jun 19 2015, 15:24

At my local gaming store at least one Blood Angles Player is talking about allying in this detachment and putting Dante into one of the drop pods to give it more bite.

Reavers might be a good choice on the edge of the table like Scrz says to try and get a scatter off the board edge. And the Hit&Run for survivors could be used to disengage and then attempt to put distance between you and the drop pods if he is choosing to ignore objectives. Use our speed to an advantage? What do the more experienced players think?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Fri Jun 19 2015, 15:27

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
At my local gaming store at least one Blood Angles Player is talking about allying in this detachment and putting Dante into one of the drop pods to give it more bite.

Well, we (BA players) all have plenty of assault squads that are not currently doing anything else so at least we can use them for something!

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Thu Jun 25 2015, 18:27

I don't remember where I saw this, but a guy was playing against drop pod grey knights, and used them in the same way as the skyhammer formation. I think this tactic would only work if you deploy second, however. Essentially, your army would have to consist of some sacrificial units (reavers, mandrakes) and then tons of shooty units (venoms, gunboat raders, dissie ravagers, the whole lot).
You see, if he deploys first he will likely choose for all his stuff to arrive turn one. You deploy some mandrakes, reavers, or any other expendable units, near your table edge. Sit them on some objectives so that he can't really ignore them. Pray nightfighting is in effect, and put your mandrakes in terrain. He comes in turn one, kills off some of you reavers and mandrakes, hopefully doesn't wipe you off the board just yet (2+ cover saves, after all).
When you reserves arrive you should be able to maneuver everything on from the edge of your board. Position your guys smartly, and those rapid firing splinter rifles and whatever else you have should make a meal of anything that was silly enough to drop down too close to the edge. In the meantime you should be far away enough from the rest of his army for him to be unable to do much about it in turn 3. There would be no risk of any mishaps either, since nothing is deep-striking.

I've never tried this, and sincerely hope I'll never have to. Can someone just remind me if it is considered a tabling when you have no models on the table, even though you still have reserves?

One more thing I just though off; If anything does survive that first round, you can just move your bikes off the table to allow them to come from reserves turn 2, effectively removing them as targets from your opponents units.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Fri Jun 26 2015, 00:18

The problem is not just the skyhammer formation. It is also what he brings with it. You might be facing two IKs as well or units of skitarii or white scar bikers ... anything can bolster this formation. I played skyhammer with skitarii this week. I near tabled a necron decurion list which is something. ... my second go I altered the list a bit and took out a WK down turn one and nearly tabled him by turn two. Only his crimson hunters survived. So think about what you will do carefully.

I feel the only viable defense is MSU against a skyhammer list. When your opponent can destroy, pin or tie up eight units turn one  with a little over half his list what do you think the other 700 - 850 points are doing? This is the real problem. I would want 20+ units on the table. Then I could retaliate at least. You also will lose badly castling up - this is not good advice. You need to spread out and divide his forces as well. Now fearless also helps alot - you cannot be pinned - so adding any eldar that can provide fearless helps. Now people arev thinking null deployment as well which could work but you do run the risk of being tabled and DE have no real reserve manipulation. Also skyhammer can choose to go second and drop in turn two.

Now I'm just reiterating my experience after two games with a skyhammer list. I won't play a third because I fear I won't get anyone wanting to play me unless practicing for a major event. It just is not fun to play against. Basically the skyhammer guy is playing his own game after two turns if he targets his opponent with any sense.

Now I've also been on the other side of fence facing a skyhammer list:

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11014p440-a-tdc-blog-strategies-unit-analysis-batreps-observations-tactics#139384

I thought I played really well, btw, but I still lost. Also my list was something my opponent had not seen before which helped a bit.

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Fri Jun 26 2015, 00:34

You're right, it sounds mad.

Maybe a freak show unit? Throw in some fusion pistols and haywire to counter any IK, armour of misery + mask of secrets and psychic shriek against anything else? Won't be cheap, but it's the one thing that might just do it. Deep strike them in with a webway portal and do the classic maneuvre with the raider to overcome ion shields, otherwise just try to tie up as much of his army as possible while your gunboats are taking care of the sky hammer guys. With a bit of luck that might get you somewhere. Turn three your freak show is probably wiped, at which point you can play it as a normal game. Sky hammers aren't cheap, add whatever the freak show takes out and you may actually come out on top in terms of points killed.

That's all I've got tbh; I don't think any bubble wrapping tactics would be worthwhile because it would take a lot of bubble wrap to shield yourself from that beast.

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Fri Jun 26 2015, 01:09

If Freakshow lists utilize counter-reserve strategies, I think they can come out victorious against Skyhammers, but there's a lot there they don't want to tangle with.

Question: when discussing this, are we assuming the devs are coming in with 4 grav cannons, or are other builds likely, do you think? (Because honestly, with the exception of our MCs, most of the DE stuff just laughs at grav cannons)
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Fri Jun 26 2015, 09:02

Yes, against space marines psychic shriek is the only thing that works, but if it's skitarii, like egorey mentioned, dropping a few more points for torment grenade launchers shouldn't hurt. My point is, while they damage some things better than others, they are the jack of all trades designed to sow chaos in your enemies back line no matter what awaits them. Which is why i believe sinking 60-75pts for fusion pistols in case of that one knight is excusable.

I'm not counting on load outs , just that they will kill anything they target. Sort of a worst case scenario type of thing. People make it sound like it's likely they will bring grav, but you have to be ready for when they are full of flamers.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Fri Jun 26 2015, 12:42

I didn't think devs could bring flamers.
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chickendinner
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Fri Jun 26 2015, 12:47

No? I wouldn't know tbh, but like I said that doesn't matter. Standard bolsters are dangerous enough for our vehicles, so the way I see it is the sky hammer is essentially a delete button.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Fri Jun 26 2015, 13:32

Just a rookie here (Only got back into Dark Eldar recently because my Uthwe army was wiping the floor with the locals and I wanted something friendly, and I had most of my 5th edition stuff lying around), but maybe bulk small units could work as a counter here? Assuming combat squads for both Devies and Assault Marines, we're looking at 8 units killed worst case scenario. A minimum sized unit of Mandrakes will set you back 36 points, while a minimum sized squad of Warriors will set you back 40.

Take a CAD, use 1 Lhamaean + 2 5-man Kabalites squads, then 3 squads of 'drakes. Sets you back a touch under 200 points, can be spread around the board in cover, should survive until your real army shows up from reserve. Use your Mandrake placement to try and split the enemy up a bit if you can, then drop everything onto their weak flank and clean that up before moving on.

Nice in theory. Not sure if it'll work in practice.


EDIT: by the way: DARK ELDAR and FRIENDLY should never be in the same sentence! This is a sorry state of affairs.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Tue Dec 15 2015, 18:16

I don't want to necessarily bring back an old thread, but starting a new one seemed silly

I had my first encounter with skyhammer. Assault squads with flammers and devs with las and melta. I run a standard Dark Eldar Kabal with gunboats, a couple venoms, ravagers, Incubi, Sslyth, and Trueborn. Traditionally I do pretty well against Space Marines. This game, however, was the opposite. No night fight, went first. I'm a few words, the game was basically over in 2 turns. The flamming drop pods are mean nasty. The devs took out my ravagers in cover. It wasn't even fun. I'm trying to figure out how to properly deploy. I think that my deployment was my demise
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Wed Dec 16 2015, 06:31

@Nariaklizhar wrote:
I don't want to necessarily bring back an old thread, but starting a new one seemed silly

I had my first encounter with skyhammer. Assault squads with flammers and devs with las and melta. I run a standard Dark Eldar Kabal with gunboats, a couple venoms, ravagers, Incubi, Sslyth, and Trueborn. Traditionally I do pretty well against Space Marines. This game, however, was the opposite. No night fight, went first. I'm a few words, the game was basically over in 2 turns. The flamming drop pods are mean nasty. The devs took out my ravagers in cover. It wasn't even fun. I'm trying to figure out how to properly deploy. I think that my deployment was my demise

I'd be spreading my army far and wide, especially when going first! Also, spread your skimmers more than a Flamers distance apart to prevent him hitting multiple tanks.

Other than that, change your list as Coven formations (Grotesquerie and Corpsethief Claw) are strong and the Scalpel Squadron allow you to null deploy, meaning if he goes first then half his pods come down without any of your targets, so you dictate the turns of engagement!

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Wed Dec 16 2015, 11:07

It doesn't matter if you null deploy. The sky hammer formation may choose when they come in: first or second.

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