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 Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese

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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 13:39

I never understood problems with things like that - this is clearly intended as an money-making tournament player pick, not something every single regular Joe will pick up and play with, especially since most tourneys and game groups ban duplicate formations.

My point is: if you want to play for fun, this doesn't even remotely touch you, then why complain or bother? Just tell your buddies not to use it if you think it's "broken OP" or whatever. If you play competetively, then why are you complaining? Just mix Harlequins, CEldar and Deldar for some things that will laugh at this formation and be done with it. As far as I am concerned, most people who complain about this are guys who are sad their fluff list won't be able to win, because "they only play pure Harlequin lists/Skitarii/Only field foot-slogging Wyches" etc.

If you want to win, be adaptable. Any of you remember how it was playing 3rd edition Dark Eldar in 5th edition? My buddy used to sweep every single tournament with them, because he was good with them. He was not afraid to modify his list or scratch a unit off because it was ineffective.

Haven't see any tournament big-wigs complaining about this formation. Like, at all. It's 4 squads that have to split in a way that forces them to attack the same units to benefit from half the rules. It's not that impressive.

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 13:58

@mightydoughnut wrote:
I never understood problems with things like that - this is clearly intended as an money-making tournament player pick, not something every single regular Joe will pick up and play with, especially since most tourneys and game groups ban duplicate formations.

Firstly, it's about balance. There are many 40k armies out there that simply have nothing that is even remotely on the same power level as a Necron Decurion, Eldar Aspect Host, Seer Council, Skyhammer Annihilation Force, Librarius Conclave etc.

Secondly, in this particular case, pretty much every marine player (you know, over 50% of the players of this game) will have most or all of the models needed to field this formation. I know I do. So it's hardly going to be something that is rarely seen.

Thirdly, what drawbacks are there to taking this formation? You lose ObjSec on units that never had it in the first place. In other words, you give up nothing to get a host of very potent special rules. Now take a long, hard look at the Realspace Raiders detachment. We give up Objective Secured in order to take 3 extra Fast Attack choices (which can be done with double CAD anyway) and get a crappy cover save for one turn that doesn't even give it's full effect to the Fast Attack choices that we're taking the bloody detachment for!! Whoop-de-doo!!! Evil or Very Mad

Lastly, paying real world money for in-game benefits absolutely sucks.


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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 14:36

and 4th:

Quote :
Just tell your buddies not to use it if you think it's "broken OP" or whatever.

Telling anyone what he should field and what not is quite rude.
Sure, you can talk about it. And if they happen to have a different point of view the retort will most likely be "yeah so is your Dark Artisan and i'm not complaining either".
The result is a pointless discussion about power levels and why this stuff is not OP.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 15:05

Necrons have basically no Allies, so their Decurion being strong is logic. We have a Eldar Host - we have battle brothers with them, what they have, we can use. Don't want to play this way? Well, tough luck, this is how the game looks now, competetive-wise. The only clear signal GW understands is not spending money on their stuff - I would really love to see some more support for Dark Eldar, as they look cool and have amazing fluff, but I also know this is a bussiness - Space Marines/CEldar are thier main selling points, no wonder they get the good toys.

Balance problems will always be a nightmare for cash cows like WH40k and this formation is not so broken. I'd say the Mechanicum one is way more powerful. 700 free points for Wargear? Now, that's broken. Yet, somehow, nobody is winning tournaments with it. GW might be greedy, but they are not that stupid.

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 15:20

ok, so going back to the op - we're talking about 4 units here, two that shoot well and two that assault.

I really don't see why we're all getting fussed about it, the two devastator squads can target, you guessed it, two of our units, probably forcing us to jink. If you've got troops on the ground then yes they're probably going to hit the ground (i struggle to pass Ld tests on 2D6, let alone 3) but the only reason to have them out of transports anyway is if you're worried about podding flamers. The warriors certainly won't be priority number 1 for the devs! They're likely to shoot your ravagers or venoms would be my guess. Not a huge threat, especially if you've got night fighting and are deployed in cover.

Similarly, the marine assault squads hit like marshmallows, don't place your ravagers in the open and force them to charge your raiders, that way you can overwatch them with 20 splinter rifles (with rerolls) and watch them fail their charge, assuming they don't scatter out of range to start with (no inertial guidance system on jump packs!). They can probably do a reasonable number on raiders if they use krak grenades, but I'd be surprised if any half decent marine player used full squads, so we're probably looking at 1-2 HP's on average.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 16:00

Quote :
Necrons have basically no Allies, so their Decurion being strong is logic. We have a Eldar Host - we have battle brothers with them, what they have, we can use. Don't want to play this way? Well, tough luck, this is how the game looks now, competetive-wise. The only clear signal GW understands is not spending money on their stuff - I would really love to see some more support for Dark Eldar, as they look cool and have amazing fluff, but I also know this is a bussiness - Space Marines/CEldar are thier main selling points, no wonder they get the good toys.

This is wrong on so many levels...
1) We have Eldar host? Fine. So if I happen to play a game with my Dark Eldar I just need to use less Dark Eladr and more Eldar. Seems reasonable... or not.. because.. you know you are not a vegetarian if you substitute your salad with steak. MAy taste better but that is not the point is it?

2) Vote with your wallet is a good idea! So I should spend less on Dark Eldar and more on Eldar to force them to give more stuff to... the worse selling product? In what kind of upside down reality does this work? IF a product doesn't sell well and people are boycotting it, I will just stop producing it. Thats a business decison.
The other more likely decision is: Oh I see people like good rules. Lets give our bad selling armies good rules and see what happens. I would totally buy andother 30 awesome Hellion models if the rules would not be crap. That is money lost right here.
Quote :

the two devastator squads can target, you guessed it, two of our units, probably forcing us to jink.

If I was a space marine, I would target Talos/Cronos, Dark Artisan, CTC? Because 1 unit of Grav Devs does 6 wounds on average after cover and FnP. Why should I go for Vehicles when I have Assault marines?
Quote :

Similarly, the marine assault squads hit like marshmallows, don't place your ravagers in the open and force them to charge your raiders, that way you can overwatch them with 20 splinter rifles (with rerolls) and watch them fail their charge, assuming they don't scatter out of range to start with (no inertial guidance system on jump packs!).

Assuming you go for gunboats you will cause around 3 wounds on the marines. Then your gunboat is gone. 10 S4 shots, 7 HoW hits and 7 S6 attacks later it is a wreck.
Full squads (for assaults) are not unreasonable here as you can still combat squad und thus make 4 units charge ton turn 1 instead of 2.

Also saying "assaults hit like marshmellows when we are T3 with next to no armor is an understatement. Yes, when I play Chaos, Necrons,.. I do not care about them. But an assault squad running into a squad of Kabalites means a messy dead for them and smiling marshmellows.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 16:49

So place your units in a location that make them difficult to target. Let's face it, if you have a DA on the table at the start of the game you're playing it quirky anyway, since they tend to be WWP'd in. CTC you're pretty much asking for what you get, if your opponent pods in two units of grav devastators then they've spent 490pts bare bones, probably more to take on your own nasty formation that's costing not a huge amount more.

I calculate that if your CTC is in cover, then you might lose 3 of them, assuming that all the grav gunners can see all the Talos and they're not in ruins. So actually you'll end up losing fewer points of models than your opponent has spent on guns to take them out, leaving your other units free to hit back next turn.

My point about assault marines was that they would be in squads of five, because spending 150+pts to kill a single 50ish pt transport is stupid, especially if it leaves your guys exposed in their deployment zone the following turn.

There are ways to protect yourself against this formation if you actually think about it, rather than just crying it's op. It's also far less op than dropping SD flame templates into your opponent from an open topped transport that's just arrived from deep strike without scattering.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the formation myself, and my marines won't be using it - having systematically removed all the T1 assault options from the game I don't like them being introduced back via a web bundle with a formation that's only available when you buy those models direct, but I'll live with it.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 18:54

Quote :
I calculate that if your CTC is in cover, then you might lose 3 of them,

Did you factor in Grav amps (reroll to wound) and detachment tactics (reroll to hit)?
Because even in ruins it would be 10 unsaved wounds after fnp.

Quote :
My point about assault marines was that they would be in squads of five, because spending 150+pts to kill a single 50ish pt transport is stupid, especially if it leaves your guys exposed in their deployment zone the following turn.

I discussed with our Marine Players and the answer was 10 in most cases.
You combat squad them in 4x5 so you can still double assault if you need more than 1 squad (your gunboat would be a double assault), it is easier to actually land them, it adds to their MSU and last but not least even if you are unlucky you probably get some where you want them.
Also they mainly expect venoms as gunboats are rare and are considered inferior.

Add to this that these are not the only pods coming down. You still can expect your good old 5 man flamer squads.
Also all things in consideration you can also expect more scouts now as they did not increase in price but in BS/WS and their lanspeeder storm with assaultcannon comes i around the same points as our Venom + Warriors.

sure you can protect against the formation in a vacuum. It in itself is not OP. But it opens up a variety of possibilities of other formations/units to synergize with.

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 20:41

I only have to endure until they fix my chaos Marines by creating iron Warrior or thousand Sons rules.

*cries*

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 21:49

only have to endure till gw fixes the real suprise assaulters the darkeldars Razz with wychez in the lead :3
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 22:52

My biggest issue with this is that GW is selling people who want to spend mony to get them better rules than the ones for people who can't afford them.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 23:07

The money thing is a moot argument imo. This game is incredibly expensive. I have a Revenant ... am I rich or poor? Not relevant.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 23:44

Not to thread jack but since we are talking formations...just looked at a formation that uses 3,yes 3 land raiders! In short if they stay within 6" of each other,they IGNORE STUNNED,SHAKEN,IMMOBILISED,WEAPON DESTROYED AND I think can force a reroll or 2 of something,pen roll or??. Just a glance did not read it all.
I can see this and the drop pod list together..basical if I see this I wont bother setting up. Just congrats on winning and GW, I hate your #$$#!! A$%# for killin the fun.

Back to original topic.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Mon Jun 15 2015, 23:46

Depends. The money point is valid.
You can play the game on every money point. But more money makes you win more often.

Jim has an average Eldar army.
He can play his CAD with every unit. But every unit only once... some of them twice (like dire avengers, Guardians, Sperpents)

Now meet bob. Bob has money. His Eldar armie has multiples of each chocie. At least 3 some of them even 6.

There comes a new unit with incredible rules.
Jim gets a unit of 5.
Bob gets 3 units of 10.

At the end of the Day money matters. there is a difference between an average player that builds 1 Farseer, 2 units of jetbikes, 1 fire dragons, reapers, Fireprism, Serpents and Scorpions and a player who can afford his army of 18 scatterbikes and 4 Wraitknights.

The post above me is a good example. Most people I know one ONE Landraider. They ain't cheap. So they won't bother with a formation that uses 3 even if the formation ist good. If you play the game with lots of money (as a friend of mine does) you don't bother running to the next store buying another 2.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Tue Jun 16 2015, 00:10

simple solution GET A JOB!

I think we can do without comments like that - Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Tue Jun 16 2015, 04:59

@Ispa wrote:
simple solution GET A JOB!

Ah yes the simple answer, get a job; after all, all jobs pay the same and everyone has exactly the same finacial responsibilities as everyone else. There is more to the world then just getting a job and spending your money on a hobby. There are other expenses for many people such as children, mortgages, ect.

But what do I know of the world, after all I just need to "go get a job" and live in a fantasy world were all I need to spend my money on is Warhammer 40k. Could you maybe point me in the direction of the webway portal that will take me there?

/rant
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Tue Jun 16 2015, 05:10

[quote="Ispa"]
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Depends. The money point is valid.
You can play the game on every money point. But more money makes you win more often.

Jim has an average Eldar army.
He can play his CAD with every unit. But every unit only once... some of them twice (like dire avengers, Guardians, Sperpents)

Now meet bob. Bob has money. His Eldar armie has multiples of each chocie. At least 3 some of them even 6.

There comes a new unit with incredible rules.
Jim gets a unit of 5.
Bob gets 3 units of 10.

At the end of the Day money matters. there is a difference between an average player that builds 1 Farseer, 2 units of jetbikes, 1 fire dragons, reapers, Fireprism, Serpents and Scorpions and a player who can afford his army of 18 scatterbikes and 4 Wraitknights.

The post above me is a good example. Most people I know one ONE Landraider. They ain't cheap. So they won't bother with a formation that uses 3 even if the formation ist good. If you play the game with lots of money (as a friend of mine does) you don't bother running to the next store buying another 2.



simple solution GET A JOB!

So you enjoy having your favorite army-ies getting their codexes nerfed,wargear pulled /nerfed or points changed that contradict the capabilities,characters dropped due to spiteful crap GW does or due to the whinings of space puppy players,inept writers,etc?
You enjoy seeing models and units that you (hopefully) painted well basically tossed to the side because the rules have made them worthless... So you can go blow more money on units to try to make up for the shortcomings?

That is basically the point you are making..good for you glad you can afford to blow whatever $$ you need to get competitive again.

Personally I DONT like having to blow 1-200 on replacement units that are a fill in for units that were perfectly useable and I have. I dont like having any of the crap happen that I state above ,which you seem to find enjoyable.
For the record, I am a hardcore SOB fan and I currently can still field a stand alone army that can surprise many other players(and piss off Eldar players Razz ) and I have about the most outdated models and doinked codexes around and most limited wargear selection.....I keep hoping for some upgrades but fear they will nerf them if they ever touch their codex again.. the last faq jacked a couple important things.

Gave up my CSM army-ies due to HORRIBLE 'reworks' done by stupid writers and codex committees -and I used to enjoy the hell out of my CSM ... alas no more.

Bottom line i refuse to get a Space Marine, Necron,Ork army-not my style.. Eldar-  friend runs power lists, not crazy playing against him lately.

I enjoy playing my armies pure with little or no allies...if I do it is for spice not to make the main dish (army) able to play on a 'equal level'.

Sorry to most-rant off
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Tue Jun 16 2015, 07:45

@Ispa wrote:


simple solution GET A JOB!

From your attitude and your incoherent argument I can tell that you ar obviously not sticking to your own advice.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Tue Jun 16 2015, 09:20

Let's keep it civil please ladies and gentlemen - Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Tue Jun 16 2015, 23:02

I'm personally kind of excited because of this formation. Space Marines are totally casuals compared to Dark Eldar at quick/precise raids, and they get this cute formation. I feel like if DE get updated (hopefully someday soon) we will probably have our own ridiculous formations like this. Obviously my hopes and dreams aren't generally on GW's list of things to do, but I feel like this is a possible upside to the emergence of more and more powerful/specialized formations. jocolor
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Wed Jun 17 2015, 07:33

I would not expect a new book before 8th edition.
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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Wed Jun 17 2015, 07:43

Maybe we'll get some White Dwarf formations/models, like Tyranids.

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Wed Jun 17 2015, 10:13

My biggest issue is keeping track of all the silliness. Every week you are confronted with a formation that is new to you, meta altering and extremely powerful. There is absolutely no way i can keep up. When i started my blog i could reasonably discuss a codex and builds when requested. Now I haven't the time nor the inclination to purchase every supplement and test all the various formations to assess their worth on the table top. So I rely on second hand sources and read some very poor advice on the net.

I was testing a War Host (eldar jetbike/skyrunner spam) and told online by a few people that psychic witchfires wee just bad because my seer council would be jinking and therefore a number of my powers would never hit ... lol. Psychic shriek, executioner and mind war are inaccurate with jink and of course destructor and eldritch storm unplayable. But wait a minute - who jinks a concealed seer council that can turbo boost behind cover? Seriously - this is advice? Play with or against a seer council before commenting.

So we are now getting and giving advice on a formation that I presume no one has yet faced. I wont argue that it is powerful. I will question some of what I have read here though. It indeed looks powerful on paper - anyone can see that much. But I will wait and see how it plays out before altering any lists to accommodate facing it on the table. Like any alpha strike list we face  - and in today's GW there are many - we employ the usual options. When people can ally in six drop pods to any imperial list this formation is not the scariest.

So SM are getting beefed up - I see that. Soon they will have a 3 Libby formation granting 2+ psychic casting. They will have a three land raider formation. They already have skyhammer. Various SM codex also have some nifty little formations and tricks. If they do not make grav cents and white scars better - well I'll deal with it the usual ways I deal with alpha strikes.

I am not arguing this trend of GW's makes me a happy camper. It does not. This leaves me with a few choices. Give up my hobby or adapt following the least aggressive and hopefully least expensive path. That means thinking outside the box. I'm confident that I can field a somewhat competitive list with the models I own. Six opposition core units can only take out one unit each on each of six turns. Having a list made up of 36+ units - very doable with DE/Eldar - solves your problems. Mkae sure they are somewhat durable and mobile and an alpha strike list can work against your opponent.

I recently saw a list with three weirboyz and a lot of min units ( he also rolled demonology/sanctic on the weirdboyz) do fairly well against some hardcore lists. He had grots, min squads of boys, single mek guns, single koptas, et all. Like the 3 man reaver jetbike spam lists we can field ... with allied windrider bikes. I could caltrops the crap out of a drop pod SM list and use the host to shred them with AP2 shuri weapons.

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Wed Jun 17 2015, 14:00

As a part time Raven Guard player I should love this formation, but it just makes me feel bad.
I don't think it is OP against DE or autowin for SM if they take it. But I think it will be so powerful against certain units and strategies that it will effectively limit what kind of units the different armies can field and hope to have a somewhat close game. But as some builds are invalidated by this I am sure that other will be made to counter it and units that you did not see that often might become common.
What rankles me are all the new things that take dice out of the game. Choosing when to come in and the automatic debuff and to some extent the D, really takes away from the excitement of throwing dice. Also units that are so powerfull that they will evaporate most units they point their guns at, takes away any reason for throwing the dice in the first place. What GW seems to have forgotten is that what brings the gambler back to the table is the jolt you get from the spin of the wheel, the draw of the card and the roll of the dice. Not the final winnings.
Of course removing the option to deploy and then assault the same turn from the game just to bring it back again is just...
I think I will proxy this with two AV 12 open topped web way portal markers that disgorge units of fanatical trueborn with souped up blasters and wyches so drugged out of their minds that the rest of my army won't go anywhere near them.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Wed Jun 17 2015, 14:18

Quote :
But as some builds are invalidated by this I am sure that other will be made to counter it and units that you did not see that often might become common.

The point why you don't see some units is that they are utter garbage in any scenario.
The Hellion loses to the Reaver no matter what. That is why you see Reavers but no Hellions.

The current Dark Eldar meta revolves around "use your best units, preferable in formations for additional boni, try to find good synergies and outplay your opponent to stand a chance against his ragtag fluff army". The codex already has reached its ceiling... there is no undiscovered hidden OP. The next (forced) step is to ally in Eldar which will be followed by "replace your remaining Dark Eldar with Eldar and call it a day"
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