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 Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese

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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sat Jun 13 2015, 20:12

This from BoLS this morning.  As a budding Raven Guard/Raptors player, it is very fluffy and exactly what I would ike to be able to use.  However, everybody and their dog will be using it soon, and as a Dark Eldar player, it's going to be a challenge - to say the least.

Thoughts on how best to counter it?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/06/new-space-marine-op-formation.html

Bell of Lost Souls wrote:
The Skyhammer Annihilation Force comprises:

Two Assault Squads with Jump Packs
Two Devastator Squads in Drop Pods
And no less than four special rules:

Shock Deployment: All units in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Instead of using the normal deployment and reserve rules for these units, you can, during deployment, choose whether this Formation will arrive during your first or second turn. The entire Skyhammer Annihilation Force automatically arrives on the turn you choose—no Reserve Rolls are required. Ignore this Formation’s Drop Pods for the purposes of the Drop Pod Assault special rule.

First the Fire, then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in aSkyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.

Suppressing Fusillade: A unit targeted by a Skyhammer Annihilation Force’s Devastator Squad in the Shooting phase must take a Morale test at the end of the phase on 3D6, regardless of how many casualties were inflicted. If the test is failed, the enemy unit does not Fall Back, but must immediately Go to Ground. If the test is passed, the enemy unit is unable to fire Overwatch for the rest of the turn.

Leave No Survivors: Assault Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force can use their Jump Packs in both the Movement phase and the Assault phase. If an Assault Squad from a Skyhammer Annihilation Force charges a unit that has Gone to Ground as a result of the Suppressing Fusillade special rule, that Assault Squad can reroll failed To Hit and To Wound rolls in the ensuring Assault phase.

Time for the Space Marines to save us? This seems to be one of the most cinematically cool formations ever!

Wow this formation is super good. Not only do you get TWO more drop pods in on turn one, the Devastators get relentless now, so they can arrive in the pods and fire at normal ballistic skill. Go, go, new space boots! Plus the assault squads can deep strike in and assault without getting over-watched! Best part is all the normal rules apply to these guys to Chapter Tactics, Combat squads, and Combat Doctrines if applicable!

So for about 350 points bare bones you get some fast movers that can do some serious work, and unlock two extra turn one pods for your forces!

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sat Jun 13 2015, 20:15

This is...insane. I'm going to take a moment to be horrified by it for a minute.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sat Jun 13 2015, 20:22

You can not counter something that happens entirely outside your control.
Kiss your Dark artisan goodby as Grav Devastors will kill it guaranteed and be ready to lose 4 Venoms turn 1.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sat Jun 13 2015, 20:28

Caveat - I am assuming that the special rules have been quoted accurately, but I have yet to see a close-up of the datasheet that is actually clear enough to read.  There may yet be some sort of limitation to it's use, but that's perhaps just wishlisting at this point.

Null deployment by us, make them go first so they have nothing to do on Turn 1 or 2?  But when we finally arrive, they are lined up for us?

Also, a full-size Grotesquerie with 2 WWP HQ's, and a Corpsethief Claw, would seriously dent them.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sat Jun 13 2015, 21:03

Quote :
Null deployment by us, make them go first so they have nothing to do on Turn 1 or 2? But when we finally arrive, they are lined up for us?

He can decide if he wants to drop them turn 1 or 2
Quote :

Shock Deployment: All units in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Instead of using the normal deployment and reserve rules for these units, you can, during deployment, choose whether this Formation will arrive during your first or second turn. The entire Skyhammer Annihilation Force automatically arrives on the turn you choose—no Reserve Rolls are required. Ignore this Formation’s Drop Pods for the purposes of the Drop Pod Assault special rule.

So null deployment gets a bit risky, that also means you have to win the roll to determine who starts.

Also that is just around 700 points while CTC and a full size Grots will come in for at least 1400 and that is without a 2nd character with WWP.

That 2 dev. squads with grav cannons will dish out 40 grav shots, using their super special ulramarine space marine traits.
Thats on average 18 unsaved wounds AFTER FnP on the CTC.
And you can still fill the rest of the points with Thunderhammer terminators and Dreads.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sat Jun 13 2015, 22:35

Grotesques still laugh at them.

Eldar allies for invisibility...I think we can survive it.

It's rough, don't get me wrong. Just not I-Win-Button rough. Covens and Daemons can probably weather it.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sat Jun 13 2015, 22:38

Quote :
Grotesques still laugh at them.

Laught at what? At the 700 points you try to counter with 1400 points or the 7 dreads with 5 attacks and S10 i can buy for the point difference?
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sat Jun 13 2015, 22:54

Good going Gw. I thought eldar was bad. Then the skatarii formation. Now this.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sat Jun 13 2015, 22:59

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
Grotesques still laugh at them.

Laught at what? At the 700 points you try to counter with 1400 points or the 7 dreads with 5 attacks and S10 i can buy for the point difference?

When are Grots 1400 points?
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sat Jun 13 2015, 23:15

This formation is really good. But I have to ask, do people not use LOS blocking terrain? Because anytime I face the hint of Deepstriking on turn one, I castle up behind something that blocks LOS. You can't shoot/assault what you can't see, right? Granted, I play in a friendly group where we pick our own table sides and then set up terrain how we want and I realize this isn't always an option, but it seems like there's not a whole lot else you can effectively do against something that can pump out dozens of Grav shots and THEN assault you on turn one. Fearless (Coven) Grots might be a decent answer, but Grots that are hiding behind a building in a corner of the table seem like the better answer.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sat Jun 13 2015, 23:54

So let me get this right. The concept of the Dark Eldar design is supposed to strike fast, from unexpected angles and hit our enemies hard to reduce their numbers before they can hit us. That is the fluff behind us right?

With that said, I think my Archon needs to be shot in the head, his remains hidden to prevent reanimation, and a replacement found as it appears that he is announcing when and where the Kabal is going to attack so that the Ultramarines can prepare to ambush us upon our arrival.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 01:00

Deploy in cover and if it's NF turn 1 your not going to loose much and the marine player probably won't charge you as he will he striking at Int 1 (assuming they don't get assault grenades)

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The PayneTrayn
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 05:30

1++ wrote:
Deploy in cover and if it's NF turn 1 your not going to loose much and the marine player probably won't charge you as he will he striking at Int 1 (assuming they don't get assault grenades)

Nope. Space marines have assault grenades and krak grenades. I think this broke me; I have no desire at all to play 40k anymore...
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 06:45

The PayneTrayn wrote:
1++ wrote:
Deploy in cover and if it's NF turn 1 your not going to loose much and the marine player probably won't charge you as he will he striking at Int 1 (assuming they don't get assault grenades)

Nope. Space marines have assault grenades and krak grenades. I think this broke me; I have no desire at all to play 40k anymore...

Feel free to PM me if you ever wanna talk about selling your army! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 07:10

I would try null deployment and let the bulk of my army arrive in turn three! Give him a single Venom or some reaver that just enter turn two to catch some objectives with his mighty 700 points formation. Or maybe a fortress. He can't attack those inside and I have access to a communication upgrade to make sure everything else of my army is entering the game when it's save enough.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 07:43

CptMetal wrote:
I would try null deployment and let the bulk of my army arrive in turn three! Give him a single Venom or some reaver that just enter turn two to catch some objectives with his mighty 700 points formation. Or maybe a fortress. He can't attack those inside and I have access to a communication upgrade to make sure everything else of my army is entering the game when it's save enough.

And how do you know that he is going to use the Skyhammer and not one of his other formations before you write your army?
Theoryhammer is all nice and dandy if you know exactly what is coming at you. But you dont.
All you know is, it is Space Marines probably Ultramarine Chapter.
He might as well bring his double Gladius with 500 points of free vehicles.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 07:57

Why? It's still a useful army. It's just that I deploy them differently. If he isn't using it, I use my army and com to deep Strike as soon as possible.

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 08:06

Because depending on his army it is indeed perfectly possible to just kill the building turn 1.
Even the Skyhammer is capable of doing it.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 08:30

If true, that formation is utterly insane and almost guarantees Space Marines a win vs many, if not most, armies.

Suppressing Fusillade is probably a new low in terms of GW rules. A special rule that requires you to simply target the unit (not hit, wound or kill), forces a Ld test on 3d6 and even if you pass the test you still suffer a penalty.

Un-frakking-believable!!

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 08:32

No worries - its Web Exclusive for 300$  formation. In that particular case i just wouldnt be satisfied with pirated PDF. Guess me mates will support that stance as well.

That formation is outright stupidity, broking many rules GW created last 2 editions. What with all erasing of assault at turn 1, from every possible source in the book? Gone, just like that.

And in such a way. Basically you dont even get a chance to do something about it, it arrives, do crap-ton of damage, then assault you with re-roll. Cool stuff.

I kinda get the feeling they cant get all their people together, while certain group writes rules with some ideas in minds, there is another group who give a frak and just do what seems to be cool.

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 09:55

My how high you can jump GW, you cleared that shark by almost 50 feet!!!

When I face a SM player next I will bust out a super spammy MSU army. 9 units of 3 reavers with CC, obsec units of 3 windriders, warriors and venoms everywhere. Autarch for reserve manipulation if I choose to null deploy.

Nothing really solid he can sink his teeth into and get its pts back and its still a solid list vs many armies.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 14:09

That might actually be a really good list...

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 14:20

Honestly, coven armies don't really care about this formation. Fearless means they auto pass the moral test, they don't have shooting weapons so no overwatch doesn't bother them. Assault marines are mediocre at best in assault and won't be benefitting from re-roll to hit and wound because grotesques/talos can't fail the moral test. Grave cannons which are the most likely weapon to be mounted on the devastators don't bother grotesques in the slightest, and talos should survive them thanks to feel no pain and cover.

So yay for coven armies! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 16:10

Unfortunately for me, I don't play Coven. I play a Kabal themed list based around being Corsairs. If only Ravagers had intercept...

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I don't think that the formation is impossible to fight against, just going to be painful for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Mon'keigh Skyhammer formation - countering the new cheese   Sun Jun 14 2015, 16:34

I see a ton of people moning and groaning about this. Is it good? you bet, is it game breaking? I really don't think so. Ultimately the units all have to scatter...and then the assault squads still need to make their charges on top of that. Good positioning will negate the effectiveness to some degree. Play smart and don't panic. Ultimately that is a bunch of points on a big gambit.

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