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 I hate seize the initiative sometimes

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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Thu Jun 04 2015, 05:59

I played two games with my buddy today. The second one was because in the first game, I was tabled in 3 turns! We played 1000 pt army list. Basically, I ran 2 gun boats, 2 DL ravagers, jet fighter and trueborn in raider with wwp archon. I have done well with this army in the past, but what happened today just put me a such a disadvantage. My buddy plays imperial fists with a dred, some devestators, rhinos and drop pods, nothing crazy.

Dawn of war deployment, I deploy first and want to go first. In both games, he seizes the initiative. It happenes sometimes I get it, but in both games, my reserves (flyer and blasterborn) didn't show up till turn 4. I can only jink for so many turns, he slowly just started ripping hull point off.

Almost makes me never want to go first when you get beat that badly. I guess I learned my lesson. Don't expect to go first and deploy my units in safer places!
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Thu Jun 04 2015, 06:28

Unsieze would be nice too some times if you are forced to go first.

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Angus Khan
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Thu Jun 04 2015, 08:25

I always always always deploy as if I'm NOT going first.  I've been burned too many times by seize the initiative.

EDIT: That was a very important "not"... Razz


Last edited by Angus Khan on Thu Jun 04 2015, 22:37; edited 2 times in total
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Thu Jun 04 2015, 16:40

Angus Khan wrote:
I always always always deploy as if I'm going first.  I've been burned too many times by seize the initiative.

Really?

I always deploy as if I'm going second. Razz


In any case, I too dislike Seize the Initiative. I have three major problems with it:

1) It doesn't reward good tactics or planning - just pure luck.

2) It's important enough to change games, yet infrequent enough that planning for it is a pain.

3) It can easily be a game-changer. I've seen too many games turn ugly because one player stole the initiative. A single virtually-unmodifiable d6 roll simply shouldn't have this much influence.

Now, I know someone is going to bring up the warlord traits that let you modify/reroll seize the initiative... but that's worse. "Aha, I rolled well on this d6, so now I get a bonus on this other d6. Truly this game is rewarding my superior tactics!" Rolling Eyes
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Thu Jun 04 2015, 16:59

My point of you on this is different. Seize initiative force you to be honest.

With so many gunlines out there, turn 1 often is a huge advantage (and it's also a D6 roll that's a game changer and doesn't reward good tactic). Seize force you to deploy in a way you don't get totally screwed if you're seized, which mitigate the fact your opponent is going second. And if you don't (because it's just a 17% chance) then, statistically, your going to get your butt handed to you every 6 games you go first.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Thu Jun 04 2015, 19:38

Deamon wrote:
My point of you on this is different.  Seize initiative force you to be honest.

With so many gunlines out there, turn 1 often is a huge advantage (and it's also a D6 roll that's a game changer and doesn't reward good tactic).  Seize force you to deploy in a way you don't get totally screwed if you're seized, which mitigate the fact your opponent is going second.  And if you don't (because it's just a 17% chance) then, statistically, your going to get your butt handed to you every 6 games you go first.

+1.

This is exactly what the seize mechanic is for, punishing you for deploying too aggressively and as a result not making going first an insurmountable advantage.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Thu Jun 04 2015, 19:49

Deamon wrote:
My point of you on this is different.  Seize initiative force you to be honest.

With so many gunlines out there, turn 1 often is a huge advantage (and it's also a D6 roll that's a game changer and doesn't reward good tactic).  Seize force you to deploy in a way you don't get totally screwed if you're seized, which mitigate the fact your opponent is going second.  And if you don't (because it's just a 17% chance) then, statistically, your going to get your butt handed to you every 6 games you go first.

It just seems like an awful way to balance it.

I'd rather see a legitimate advantage to going second (e.g. in Warmachine, the player going second typically has a larger deployment zone), rather than more random nonsense.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Thu Jun 04 2015, 21:45

Maybe if they made seize a flat out 5+ would be more of a balance. That would make it a 1/3'd chance of going first and cause your opponent to reserve some models in cover (if they already dont do that).

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Angus Khan
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Thu Jun 04 2015, 22:37

The Shredder wrote:

Really?

I always deploy as if I'm going second. Razz

There should be a 'not' there... A very important 'not'.

I guess I was more tired than I thought when I wrote that. Razz
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Fri Jun 05 2015, 07:47

Unseize would be funny.

"No, after you... I insist!"

I also think it would be nice if you could 'anti-seize', and negate a successful seize with another 6 (which your opponent could negate with yet another 6, just keep going until someone doesn't roll a 6).

But of course I agree with those above that it's purpose in the game is to keep you from deploying dudes in the open with impunity.

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kidfist0
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Fri Jun 05 2015, 08:10

I've always hated seize.
I find 40k currently has far too much of the 'on a six and only a six, something cool happens for you!'

I get why its in there, but it often leaves a sour taste in the mouth, im not just talking salty gamer tears for being on the wrong end of it either. I've often felt really bad about getting that 'oops! my melta got a six for overwatch when your big walker charged my tac squad and blown it up!' or that time you somehow manage to get 4 or 5 hits with rapid fire weapons on a CC squad and kill enough to make them fail their charge with an average roll.

So yeah, IMO seize should be more likely, 4+ or 5+, it wouldnt be broken as the guy who thinks theyre going first knows hes more likely to be seized. And overwatch should be a BS modifier, not a flat change. And all the others.

Having said that, rending seems fine, though the fact that across the main rules and codexes there seems to be about 6 slightly different versions of rending is not, but thats another topic entirely...

EDIT: I actually really like the tactical implications of being able to 'unseize' (though it needs a better name..feint? My small 40k group have long been discussing making a raft of changes to 40k to make it more palatable, adding completely new rules hasnt been something we considered so far but i'll be suggesting that one.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Fri Jun 05 2015, 09:53

kidfist0 wrote:
I've always hated seize.
I find 40k currently has far too much of the 'on a six and only a six, something cool happens for you!'

I get why its in there, but it often leaves a sour taste in the mouth, im not just talking salty gamer tears for being on the wrong end of it either. I've often felt really bad about getting that 'oops! my melta got a six for overwatch when your big walker charged my tac squad and blown it up!' or that time you somehow manage to get 4 or 5 hits with rapid fire weapons on a CC squad and kill enough to make them fail their charge with an average roll.

I know that feeling as well.

The other aspect is that this 'hit on 6s' stuff tends to just amount to a great deal of faffing about. There's usually no point in not rolling, so you just end up with both players rolling a ton of dice during the game with negligible outcome. It seems more akin to a time-wasting mechanic than a legitimate game mechanic.
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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Fri Jun 05 2015, 09:57

I don't mind seize. It is REALLY good for the masses of SM players here at home that often like to use the odd drop pod in their list. Oh hi flamers and meltas...
It happened to me in 2/5 games at my last tournament but I got lucky and was able to avoid too much harm. I set up really aggessively, every game I won first turn, to maximise the chance of first blood points. I feel I placed much better because of this than in previous tournaments. Deploying to mitigate seize seemed to cheat myself of getting enough of my own units in the kill zone.

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lustigjh
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Tue Jun 09 2015, 21:14

Instead of "seize the initiative" to occasionally punish aggressive deployment perhaps turn order should just be established independently after armies are deployed.
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The PayneTrayn
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PostSubject: Re: I hate seize the initiative sometimes   Tue Jun 09 2015, 23:10

I once got in a nasty seize as Tau ag against necrons (6th edition mind you). Promptly blasted a good chunk of his army to bits; he rage quit his first turn.

So yeah...seize can be a bit good at times. Would almost rather have units take turns going, but that would require a major rules change.
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