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 Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.

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Enociac
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PostSubject: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Tue Jun 02 2015, 02:45

So, I've got a game coming up soon where I'm fighting Grey Knights. What I'm wondering is how to deal with them. It seems as though they have a hard counter for most of our dirty tricks. (Incinerators + gate of infinity for raider squads or force weapons for coven units and the like)
I was wondering what you, the masters of commorite warfare would do about the silver clad menace.
I know he usually brings a lot of paladins and dreadknights, so I was planning on bringing a voidraven with dark scythes to nullify the paladins. After that I'm stumped on what to do. Please help a long time lurker and occasional poster bounce
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Tue Jun 02 2015, 02:54

Eldar/Harlequin allies? You have to commit your dice to fewer psychic powers against GK, but Freakshow lists make mincemeat out of Dreadknights.

And most GK stuff, once it arrives, is fairly ponderous, so as long as you can weather the initial storm, staying back and potting away with poison fire from a distance will work fairly well.
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Enociac
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Tue Jun 02 2015, 03:09

I've got a cast of players around, but I feel like my lone shadowseer against the might of his psychic army is going to be like watching my 4 year old niece lift a refrigerator.
   As for freakshow stuff I could do that. I have a scalpel squadron and a dark artisan that I could use. I also  could run a stormsurge against him... but PGL don't work on ATSKNF units and if he doesn't deploy near the table edges it's all for naught as I can't make them run off the board.
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Ispa
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Tue Jun 02 2015, 04:21

venoms with dual canons and lots of blasters/dark lance will make short work of most GK.

As stated above if you survive the inital deepstrike you should be able to out manuever and out range most of the army (unless it is a shunt list.)

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Tue Jun 02 2015, 04:55

@Enociac wrote:
I've got a cast of players around, but I feel like my lone shadowseer against the might of his psychic army is going to be like watching my 4 year old niece lift a refrigerator.
   As for freakshow stuff I could do that. I have a scalpel squadron and a dark artisan that I could use. I also  could run a stormsurge against him... but PGL don't work on ATSKNF units and if he doesn't deploy near the table edges it's all for naught as I can't make them run off the board.

If you focus your dice you should be able to get a power through. Psychic Shriek or Mirror of Minds can end a Dreadknight pretty quick, especially with leadership negatives.
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lawlskees
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Wed Jun 03 2015, 02:04

I Disagree with Jimsolo on using coven units. One of my friends, who I regularly play... has grey knights. I would never suggest using coven units against grey knights. Why? because of their ability to cast force on practically anything and 1 shotting your multiple wound grotesques, talos, cronos, etc. Best way to beat them is MSU and spam poison. Lots of venoms and get everything in a vehicle if you can.

My buddy runs GK allied with Space wolves, so he can use that turn 1 drop pod with 10 purifiers, combat squaded, then able to cleansing flame with both. Yea brutal. I haven't lost to him yet however, and I win by MSU.
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Wed Jun 03 2015, 02:14

I always bring a Crucible of Malediction, for no reason other than my Haemonculus has an awesome little Hellraiser box, and I want to represent something. In nearly every game I play it is a waste of points because there are no psykers in the opposing army. In the game I played against Grey Knights, it was awesome. I wished I had more. And a Helm of Spite.

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JayDee327
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Wed Jun 03 2015, 02:24

What did you field that didn't work?? Also what was his counters? Just curious.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Wed Jun 03 2015, 02:28

@lawlskees wrote:
I Disagree with Jimsolo on using coven units. One of my friends, who I regularly play... has grey knights. I would never suggest using coven units against grey knights. Why? because of their ability to cast force on practically anything and 1 shotting your multiple wound grotesques, talos, cronos, etc. Best way to beat them is MSU and spam poison. Lots of venoms and get everything in a vehicle if you can.

My buddy runs GK allied with Space wolves, so he can use that turn 1 drop pod with 10 purifiers, combat squaded, then able to cleansing flame with both. Yea brutal. I haven't lost to him yet however, and I win by MSU.

?

I don't think I said word one about covens in this thread. I DID say something about Freakshows, which don't need covens to operate.

However, a Freakshow list that DOES include covens can still do fine. It's just a matter of knowing which of your units are going to face the possibility of a Force assault and saving all your denial dice for that. Since a Freakshow list brings Psykers of its own, you should reliably be able to break one or two powers (or force the GK player to abandon the possibility of other powers in order to drown the Force roll in dice).
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Enociac
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Wed Jun 03 2015, 13:56

Thanks for all the feedback! It's really good to know! Very Happy
The last game we had (Which was a team game He and a Dark Angels player vs Me (with raiders of realspace and a dark artisan) and a harlequin player)) he had two of everything. 2 Librarians, 2 paladin squads with the librarians tucked in them, 2 rhinos with 2 strike squads in them and 2 dreadknights. Both dreads had the personal teleporters. As you may imagine, he had incinerators everywhere.
   We managed to win because the Dark Angels player didn't know what he was doing and because my ally and I managed to wipe out all of the teleporting flamethrowers first. After that we just played the range game or watched the solitaire mulch marines. Curiously, he was unsure of what to make of the dark artisan and it survived long enough to get eternal warrior. This was cause of some frustration for him when his force hammer smacked my cronos square in the face and didn't kill it.
   I'm certain he's going to bring paladins again, so I'm bringing a voidraven because I'm pretty sure it can void (tee hee) both of the paladin squads in a turn with good rolls and dark scythes. After that I'm up for anything. I usually run raider heavy as opposed to venoms, but I think I have enough venoms around for a good old venom spam list. The only other thing I was really considering was a succubus with the glaive and a venom full of incubi to chill with so I could have someone to bully strike squads while my poison is focusing on dreadknights. If I do bring coven units, I was planning on a crucible. That just seems like too good of an idea to not use.
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SaturdayNightWrist
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Wed Jun 03 2015, 22:53

I play GK also and would suggest don't even bother trying to get psykers in your army. Complete waste of time. My advice spam strength 8 ap2 and hit hard enough that he has nothing left to hit back.
First turn deep strike can ruin your day so look out for that.
Unfortunately if he knows he will be playing DE, interceptors/dreadknights with incinerators will be in abundance and being so reliant on cover its basically "pick target, target dies".
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Thu Jun 04 2015, 18:03

I play grey knights as well. I suggest an old school gun boat list. 4 raiders with kabalite warriors, Twin link the poison shots, take blasters. 1-2 squads of trueborn in venom with 4 blasters. Take a couple ravagers. Shoot the paladins with the blasters so they get one shot and he won't get his feel no pains. The Kabalites can take care of the Knights.

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PartridgeKing
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Thu Jun 04 2015, 18:47

To my mind, and from my experience, take advantage of their generally lower model count and go all in on one target until it's gone, and make sure you've minimised their ability to strike you back either blocking with raiders you've just disembarked from etc. If you can make them land in the wrong places from deepstrike and/or generally leave them stranded whilst you grab objectives so much the better.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Thu Jun 04 2015, 18:56

@PartridgeKing wrote:
To my mind, and from my experience, take advantage of their generally lower model count and go all in on one target until it's gone, and make sure you've minimised their ability to strike you back either blocking with raiders you've just disembarked from etc. If you can make them land in the wrong places from deepstrike and/or generally leave them stranded whilst you grab objectives so much the better.

This.. and keep your units spread out. Cleansing flame will kill everything.
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Thu Jun 04 2015, 22:05

The 2 monsters of the Dark Artisan don't benefit from Power From Pain so the Force weapon will kil them. Only the Haem can be EW


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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Thu Jun 04 2015, 22:18

@1++ wrote:
The 2 monsters of the Dark Artisan don't benefit from Power From Pain so the Force weapon will kil them. Only the Haem can be EW


But they get +1 Initiative, which means they strike first against grey knights most of the time. DA works pretty well against GK if you soften them up before charging.
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Enociac
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Thu Jun 04 2015, 22:50

@1++ wrote:
The 2 monsters of the Dark Artisan don't benefit from Power From Pain so the Force weapon will kil them. Only the Haem can be EW


I must have missed that! Thank you for pointing that out to me.
All that being said, I've got a pretty good idea for the list! Thank you!
The game is Saturday and I'll take lots of pictures and make a battle report for the trouble I put you through!
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@miral
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Fri Jun 05 2015, 19:17

A friend of mine plays GK and is pretty afraid of Dark Eldar. The reason is MSU and footprint. Castle against Deep Strike and if you have first turn, spread out so that he always risks to mishap. Then he is happy by killing one venom and you know that is not much of a loss. If he is psyker heavy he has even less units, if he plays few psykers he cant have force on everything. I played many matches against himm for a tournament preparation and I brought two Talos and the grotesquerie. In some games, the dreadknight killed a unit of Grots, but I did win nearly all games and also one tournament game against another GK player. He hates the over-satuartion on targets and has hard times to kill jinking raiders. With some practise you will find that GK is not an especially hard matchup Smile as it was said before: poison, thr right melee at the right time and also footprint! Also, mandrakes do great as a cheap footprint provider and distraction for those flamer.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Fri Jun 05 2015, 21:22

Quote :
Also, mandrakes do great as a cheap footprint provider and distraction for those flamer.

Why? He can safely ignore them all game long and if they happen to sit on an objective he can just assault and kill them.

The problem here is more the "no escape" rule of template weapons that kill all your precious AP2 weapons.
Even with a lot of MSU the 3 Dreadknights will just kill all your blasterborn (DS + Torrent) while beeing extremely resilent against our other weapons (54 splinter shots to kill a knight, thats 9 Splinter Cannons) and highly mobile.
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@miral
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Fri Jun 05 2015, 22:06

Well, footprint is important to prevent DS too close to your position. With reavers and mandrakes you dont pay many points to prevent large areas being shot at/deep struck on. Also, you can start your warriors on foot and place the raider around them, trueborn and more valueable units in the center. So those flamer won't hurt you too much. If you got first turn, spread out and cover large parts of the board with cheap units.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Sat Jun 06 2015, 00:43

And how should that work?
DS is hin turn 2 at the earliest. So the rest of his army which won't DS just advance at turn 1 and shoot your bubblewrap (which is not cheap btw, you are not playing IG) to shreds because they are outside of their vehicles and they will just teleport and cleanse.
They are far from unbeatable but they are a major pain in the ass to deal with.
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@miral
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Sat Jun 06 2015, 08:18

I must admit I nearly ever played against the formation that rolls reserves turn 1 (so DS turn 1) and if not I had LOS cover. On the other hand, if GK dont DS turn 1 you have a bit of a range bonus for most guns. IDK, it worked fine for me most times, even with coven units in my army. Except back in the times when wyches were anti-tank and cleansing flame killed them all...
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Tue Jun 09 2015, 11:29

Dark lances. Force their invul saves. With low model count and they being slow you can dance around them. Ravager becomes fun little anti terminator and all of them die too 1 shot. Diss cannons work but paladins tank shots.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Tue Jun 09 2015, 12:22

They die to one shot in 36% of all cases cause you have to hit, wound and they have to fail their invul.
Basically on average every ravager kills ONE Terminator.
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Grey Knights, and the disposal of same.   Tue Jun 09 2015, 12:36

Klaivex I understand how the shooting phase works, but my point is, make them take their 5 up invul maybe a 4 up, instead of a 2 up. Also wounding on 2s not 3s like a diss does. Also, I use more than just ravager for dark lance support. I was just saying I like the fact that a ravager does that since most are it as a threat, for some reason unknown to.me.
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