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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Dealing with Crons   Fri May 29 2015, 22:44

Hello, fellow Archons and Succubi! I am playing a 2k game against Necrons tommorow and need to adjust my list accordingly. Any of you can share some advice as to what to watch out for and what is best to be taken. From my several games against new Crons, I found out they are super slow, but realy tough. So, with that in mind - more heavy dakka or tons of close combat Covenite stuff with some heavy duty dakka support?

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sat May 30 2015, 00:11

What type of game is it?
I think coven is the way to go. The number of poison shots you need to kill 1 warrior is prohibitive IMHO. 1venom kills (roughly) 1 warrior each turn.
Crons are really tough, but they aren't as hard hitting as a lot of armies.
A freak show army list may be best?
Edit. Maybe darklight spam?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sat May 30 2015, 05:50

A few things.

1) Depends on if they are taking Formations or Cad, it actually is a big deal.

If he is taking the Formations Ask what they do, some of the formations has a Key unit/model that needs to stay alive. Killing that will help cripple the army.

2) Is he taking the Obelisk or not? If so Your Vehicles are in LOADS OF DANGER.

3) Kill the Transports. Transport will add more back to the unit making it harder the longer the game goes. The Faster you kill the Troop Transports the better.

4) The Wraights(Spelling?, they are the Snake/tentacle looking things) ARE SCARY but a few venoms shooting at them will do the trick, (If in Formation) They have a 3+ then a 4+ save, so you just need to make them take many saves, with 2 Wounds and most players only taking 4-5, You will need to cause at lest 35 wounds to them.

The Most important thing to know is they are a Mid-Short range master army, they are very weak turn 1 and 2, strong turn 3, and turns 4-5 If you havent done enough damage they will Walk ALL OVER YOU.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sat May 30 2015, 11:04

I'm curious to hear if you were able to win.
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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sat May 30 2015, 13:16

He mostly drops out Zendrekh with lots of footslogging Crons, so I plan to go out with tons of fire power with two dedicated CC Grot units. Will post a list, general game bio and BatRep on my channel after weekend, when I am done editting both this game and the one against Daemonkin.

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sat May 30 2015, 14:22

I'm interested to see how it goe too. I always have a tough time against Necrons. They are just really tough. Its laughable sometimes how much firepower it takes just to take out like one or two guys
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Fulgrym
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sat May 30 2015, 16:34

A good friend of mine plays necrons and yeah, they are tough as nails. amishprn has the right of it by targeting the transports due to their ability to add more warriors back to squads each turn. Once those are gone and you've dealt with the wraiths, everything else is relatively manageable. Getting into CC with the footsloggers is the way to go, if you can get there. Also, anything inflicting instant death contributes a -1 to renamiation rolls, which is quite handy Wink. All in all good luck, you're in for a tough one.
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Sinister
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sat May 30 2015, 19:19

Crons are pretty tough but DEldar seem to have less of a problem with them compared to other armies. A few things to watch out for that I have learned in my Necron heavy meta:

1. It’s already been mentioned before but it is a good idea to do away with the Ghost Arks ASAP. Our Venoms kill about 1 -2 warriors per 12 shots and Arks will make them stand right back up. Focus firing them with Ravagers is usually a good tactic.
2. Wraiths are just scary, but are not really a problem for our poison. If you can get first turn, I highly recommend focusing all poison at the Wraiths before they get reanimation protocols on their half of turn 1 (assuming the Wraiths are taken in the Harvest formation). Wraiths are tough already with their 3++ but become much more of a pain with a 3++ and a 4+++ rerolling 1s.
3. Destroyers can be a pain if your bring coven units such as Talos. Destroyers will eat through Talos pretty quickly and jump out of the way so you cannot fire back.
4. Tomb Blades can ignore cover with a very inexpensive upgrade, so be aware of where they are and try to keep Venoms away from them.
5. Standard Necron load outs (Decurion) does not have Ob Sec and this is really important to remember. Turbo Boosting a troop unit Venom / Raider into an objective clearly held by a blob of Necron warriors will always favor you. This is often forgotten, but can be a powerful advantage.


Other than that, just remember that our range is a huge advantage against a mid range shooting army like the Necrons. Load up on as many splinter cannons (Venoms or even splinter cannon scourge in ruins) and you should stand a great chance. Grots and Talos give Necrons fits due to the high likelihood of Necron units being sweeping advanced in combat against them. Don’t forget that Grots wound many Necron units on a 3+ WITH rerolls. Please don’t forget the rerolls. The more 6s you can get for ID in Grot combat the better as this bumps their reanimation to a 5+.

Good Luck!
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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sat May 30 2015, 20:38

Well, the game is over, I have lost 3 points ( 11:8 ), will post a video some time later this week. What I did learn was:
A squad of Scourges with Dark Lances are an amazing threat generator, all movement and positioning he made was dictated by their range. However, at 320 points for two 5 man dark lance squad is kind of a pricey thing, so it might be a funky idea at 2k points but it's too much of a hassle at lower points.

Pick NS on everything! Gauss weapons glance the crap out of our craft and 3+ Jink will really come in handy.

Venom spam is a mixed blessing - while it does give them more targets, making any focussed shooting way harder, it allows them to reap tons of points for killy objectives (I lost the game because he managed to get 6 points for killing 6 or more units and 3 of those were Venoms).

As Sinister said, keeping distance is the best way to play against them - while I kept to myself on my side, I managed to collect 6 VPs while he got 1 durring the span of two turns, so my mistake was getting near, instead of volleying with shots.

Razorwings are a must. If he gets several Croisants, we are so screwed.

Raiders>Venoms against them, as 3+ Jink really can save some skin and they have only one unit that can Ignore Cover, so if (as I did) you can kill them early, it realy improves their ability to wether hails of firepower.

As crazy as it may sound, Mandrakes might be a really good choice, because with their S4 AP4 Soulblaze Assult 2 shots at 18', they can seriously hurt warrior blobs.

Best way to deal with blobs of Warriors is to simply ignore them - if there is 20 of them with Zendrekh (as he deployed), they will probably do nothing, as they are mostly objective hogs.

Overall, my opponent plays WH40k in 7th way longer than I and we played Maelstrom (contact lost) only, without Mysterious Objectives so that might not be a fully well test against Necrons, but these are my thoughts.

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Fulgrym
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sat May 30 2015, 22:22

Sounds like you did pretty well with what you had Wink. I'm gonna be testing out a squad of mandrakes here soon against my buddy's necrons so I'll let you know how they did. The most I've gotten from a unit against necrons was from the Dark Artisan. Dropped them into ruins on turn 2 and next turn charged a 20 strong warrior blob, won combat and swept. Next turn charged a Triarch stalker and smacked it down. Following turn ran them into another 20 warrior blob and swept them. Any strong melee unit will utterly crush necrons on foot as well as being able to handle wraiths.

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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sun May 31 2015, 09:14

As a couple of days ago I had my first game with Dark Eldar vs Necron I'd like to share my experience, too. It was a 1250pt game and we played ITC mission 1 (Emperors Will & Modified Maelstrom).

He had a Stalker, 2 blobs of warriors, 6 wraiths, 3 jetbikes, a croissant, 3 destroyers, a unit of Immortals and a special character that gives +1 to RPs in 6". Overall I was pretty surprised how much stuff he was able to field in such a smaller game! I'd had some very disheartening experiences with my Tyranids vs his Crons (one of the reasons I've sold them recently Very Happy), so I didn't feel confident at all!

I brought a Dark Artisan (my warlord), a Succi with Grots, 2 Venoms with Warriors, 3 jetbikes and 2 Ravagers.

My plan was to outrange him with the heavy guns and venoms and tie him up with my durable CC units.

I'll make it short in how the game went down overall and what I've learned (I guess I could put up a batrep if you guys are intested, although I didn't take a pic of each turn).

- he deployed everything but the wraiths and the jetbikes in a corner on his EWill obejctive
- I had rolled to begin so I had deployed fairly spread out to mae it harder for his wraiths to just march through everything
- he seized the initiative

- I managed to kill the wraith unit early after losing just one venom to them. Some shooting softened them up and then my Succi/Grots finished them on the bottom of turn 3 I think.
- I also managed to kill the jetbike unit fairly early, robbing him of his only mobile units.
- I dropped my Dark Artisan in his deployment zone as far away from his blob as possible to keep denying him maelstrom points and scoring some myself. That unit never saw combat.
- I was very afraid to move my CC units into charge range of his concentrated forces as that would have given him an entire shooting phase to kill them which I think is exactly what wouldve happened had I tried.
- His 3 Destroyers and then flier were mostly the only units to be able to reach me after I took care of the wraiths and the jetbikes, and STILL at the end of the game I had only the Succi/Grots, the DArtisan, an immobilised Ravager and a unit of warriors left!


Key pointers in my opinion:
- we have to use our mobility to stay out of range and score as many points as we can
- try to take out the vehicles if possible - however you will get shot back if the necron player deploys them well
- the croissant I plan on taking out with a bastion + quad gun next game. I feel that a Razorwing won't do much else either and the rockets are wasted against Crons. The quad gun I can man with a small units of mandrakes or scourges with lances.
- kill their fast units first, once they are gone things get easier.
- the viability of our strong CC units might vary depending on deployment of our enemy - if he clumps everything together I wouldn't risk throwing an expensive unit at them - their close range firepower is amazing. If they spread out I'd definitely go for it.
- I think having a mobile counter cc unit to take care of the wraiths quickl y help and lets us concentrate our firepower in other places. I'll probably use a cheapish Grot unit for that (as the kitted out Succi really has problems wounding them anyway).
- next time I'll probably bring the bastion, drop one of the CC units, add more jetbikes and some scourges and maybe mandrakes.

PS: I won 15:9 and was sweating all game long, it felt A LOT closer
PPS: oh yeah and as mightydoughnut already said, Nightshields for our vehicles, I'll definitely take those, the end game was a lot about war of attrition


Last edited by BlackCadian on Sun May 31 2015, 10:40; edited 1 time in total
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sun May 31 2015, 10:29

Congratulations! I have yet to play those guys. Fortunately they fight on our side in the local small campaign. I only fight Eldar, space Marines and guard.
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Cavalier
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sun May 31 2015, 12:13

They are very tough indeed. Against anything resembling a competitive Necron list you gotta stay on point the entire time. I agree whole heartedly with Black Cadian... its all about the range game but also about sacrificial units. To go in there and root out the Tomb Blades and Wraiths you're gonna expose yourself to return fire for the most part.

Props to you Black Cadian for getting in there with your Grots as CC is a major tool that I think needs to be brought to bear against them. Pulling them out of the shooting phase is huge.

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Deldar67
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sun May 31 2015, 13:23

I don't understand all the crying over the new Eldar when you look at what the necrons have and can do. Necron wraiths are the most broken unit in the whole game (imo). Once they get to you in cc (and they will) it's just a wait and die. 2 wounds T5 3+ 4+ means more than likely they are going to stay on the board for the whole game. My best strategy is to tarpit them and then concentrate on objectives. I feel for you because there is nothing more frustrating than watching 8 units of wraiths take one wound from a D strength explosion.
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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sun May 31 2015, 13:38

@Cavalier wrote:
They are very tough indeed. Against anything resembling a competitive Necron list you gotta stay on point the entire time. I agree whole heartedly with Black Cadian... its all about the range game but also about sacrificial units. To go in there and root out the Tomb Blades and Wraiths you're gonna expose yourself to return fire for the most part.

Props to you Black Cadian for getting in there with your Grots as CC is a major tool that I think needs to be brought to bear against them. Pulling them out of the shooting phase is huge.

'Stay on point' sums it up very well I think - there's not a lot of room for mistakes in this matchup, and in turn you have to exploit every advantage your opponent gives you.

I just had to re-read my reply further up after you complimenting me on getting the Grots into CC. Then I realized that I hadnt mentioned that the Wraith unit actually came to me, and I used the Grots to counter assault Smile I guess most Necron players will send them up as fast as possible, giving us time to deal with them before their other stuff moves into range. And also our Raiders are nice and fast, so deploying one centrally with a CC unit to take care of the Wraiths (if you have to deploy first) ensure that you can get into position before they hit your lines.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sun May 31 2015, 13:49

@Deldar67 wrote:
I don't understand all the crying over the new Eldar when you look at what the necrons have and can do.  Necron wraiths are the most broken unit in the whole game (imo).  Once they get to you in cc (and they will) it's just a wait and die.  2 wounds T5 3+ 4+ means more than likely they are going to stay on the board for the whole game.  My best strategy is to tarpit them and then concentrate on objectives.  I feel for you because there is nothing more frustrating than watching 8 units of wraiths take one wound from a D strength explosion.  

The wraiths only get Reanimation Protocols from the Spyder in the formation. so if you go first just kill the spyder turn one and he never even benefits from it. Also note that the spyder has to be within 12" of the wraiths to give it and he often isn't past the first or second turn. I've found the royal court loaded into lychguard a far more invincible and lethal unit, but luckily they're slow moving.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sun May 31 2015, 14:46

And Wraith without reanimation protocol die to splinter fight just as easily as a 10 man marine squad.
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Deldar67
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sun May 31 2015, 14:57

Interesting. The necron players in my group are either lying to me or do not know the rules on wraiths. For some reason they always get their re-animation protocol with no spider in the vicinity.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sun May 31 2015, 15:19

Quote :
Adaptive Subroutines: At the start of each of the controlling player’s Movement phases, choose one of the
following special rules: Fleet, Reanimation Protocols, Shred. The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all
units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the
chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player’s next Movement phase.

Only the wraith that are part of the formation get it AND ONLY if they are winthin 12" (and if they didn't choose fleet or shred)
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sun May 31 2015, 15:20

Quote :
Adaptive Subroutines: At the start of each of the controlling player’s Movement phases, choose one of the following special rules: Fleet, Reanimation Protocols, Shred. The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player’s next Movement phase.

So no. You need the Spider in 12"
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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Sun May 31 2015, 17:45

@Deldar67 wrote:
Interesting.  The necron players in my group are either lying to me or do not know the rules on wraiths.  For some reason they always get their re-animation protocol with no spider in the vicinity.  

I think with so many rules out of so many sources, plus quickly reading over some rules leads to examples like that. Also, simply forgetting stuff. I mean, who here hasn't taken FnP rolls vs S6 weapons before? Coincidentally, my friend was absolutely convinced that the heat ray on the Triarch Stalker ignores cover in both firing modes - template AND normal shot. His reasoning was that both firing modes were 'fire based'. I asked him to show me the section in the rule book that states fire weapons ignore cover (as opposed to flame templates), which he couldn't. I think most of the time there's no malicious intent, but thats why I love forums like this - you always learn something, about your own army as well as your opponents.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Mon Jun 01 2015, 08:53

I played a 3000pt game against Crons on Thursday - my opponent didn't use the decurion but did bring the formation with an obelisk and two monoliths.

He conceded at the end of turn 4. I deployed almost my whole army and on turn 1 managed to take down his doomsday barge and ghost ark, and shook one of his annihilation barges.

Combat was my biggest ally in this game, with my reavers breaking a unit of warriors containing nemesor zahndrekh and imotekh, running them down in a sweeping advance, and my grotesques with succubus and haemonculus managed the same against a big unit of immortals. The last turns were basically an exercise in how many vehicles I could damage with my lances and haywire blasters.

I should note, that there were only three tomb blades and no wraiths in his army.

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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Mon Jun 01 2015, 09:04

You can check out a video from my game against Crons on my youtube channel. Game was kinda half:half.

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Mon Jun 01 2015, 09:32

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I played a 3000pt game against Crons on Thursday - my opponent didn't use the decurion but did bring the formation with an obelisk and two monoliths.

He conceded at the end of turn 4. I deployed almost my whole army and on turn 1 managed to take down his doomsday barge and ghost ark, and shook one of his annihilation barges.

Combat was my biggest ally in this game, with my reavers breaking a unit of warriors containing nemesor zahndrekh and imotekh, running them down in a sweeping advance, and my grotesques with succubus and haemonculus managed the same against a big unit of immortals. The last turns were basically an exercise in how many vehicles I could damage with my lances and haywire blasters.

I should note, that there were only three tomb blades and no wraiths in his army.

Hey TBE! Congrats on the convincing win! Did you find it difficult to get your assault units into CC without getting shot to pieces? If no, how did you do it? A coordinated strike => threat overload? How big was your jetbike unit?
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Crons   Mon Jun 01 2015, 11:50

Very nice TBE. Although not facing the Wraiths and multiple squads of tomb blades is a break, the rest of the army is still extremely potent.

Echoing  Black Cadian how did you get your Reavers through all that shooting? LOS blocking terrain?

I'm throwing down this weekend against a very tough Decurion build so I'm trying to pickup any tricks I can!

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