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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sat Jun 06 2015, 10:47

Your interpretation would break other rules such as crush which would do nothing at all on a roll of 11 or 12 as there is nothing specifying the number of wounds and according to you and auto-passed wound roll is no wound.

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Crush is a focussed witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 2D6. The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a result of an 11 or 12 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) with an AP equal to the result of a separate D6 roll.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sat Jun 06 2015, 10:53

Besides... You are only allowed to allocate wounds - which is done prior to saves - you are never given permission to allocate hits

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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sat Jun 06 2015, 17:29

Massaen, you roll to save the hit, with any failed saves you then allocate the D3 wounds (or what ever) to one model (as per the USR)

Klavivex Charondyr, I don't know this witch fire, but does it tell you to save against the hit? does the hit that wound automatically then multipy? if not to either of them then you just save against the resulting wound. the USR for D-weapons if for D-weapons only.

EDIT: Massaen, before you ask how do you know which model to save the hit against I'd like to rephrase my above statement thus. Allocated the D3 (or whatever) wounds, roll to save the hit and then resolve and unsaved hits i.e. roll D3 (or 6+D6).
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sat Jun 06 2015, 18:58

Quote :
but does it tell you to save against the hit?

Nope, it says nothing about saves.

Quote :
does the hit that wound automatically then multipy?

We don't know. It says nothing but according to your argument it does not cause a wound at all as beeing wounded automatically does not mean that a number of wounds has been dealt.
Lets call it Schroedingers Wound.

Quote :
if not to either of them then you just save against the resulting wound

There is no resulting wound. It does not say "wounds automatically and causes a single wound" and according to your logic:

Quote :
I think that suffering a hit that wounds automatically is NOT a wound.

It would not be a wound.
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TCS900
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 02:01

I'll add my thoughts: Imagine for a moment that you could take a save.You would (if you roll a 4, for example) suffers d3+however many wounds (my rulebook has disappeared). Now the haemonoculus fails 3 saves. Therefore you would discount one wound but still suffer another 2 instant deaths.
That's just my opinion. Hope you see where I'm trying to come from.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 10:48

@Massaen wrote:
@Squidmaster wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
No it's not. The dX only takes effect when a model loses the wound which happens after saves and is thus after the wound pools.


You know what, I think we've hit exactly where the problem is.
I really can see both sides of the argument here, but am definitely more on the side that the dX comes into play BEFORE saves, and fill wound pool, not afterwards as you put it.
Its the exact placement of the dX roll that is the problem, and I don't think we're any closer to reaching an agreement on this.

Oh, if only GW actually responded to FAQ emails.....

The D chart says that "the models suffer a hit that wounds automatically and causes it to lose D3 wounds instead of 1". while Deathblow says "The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically and causes it to loose D6+6 wounds instead of 1. No saves of any kind are allowed against this hit."

When do we lose wounds? AFTER saves - not before. As such, the dX has to come up after saves


Small note.
One Hit does not mean one Wound. Just because a single Hit will Wound automatically, doesn't dictate that it can only be a single Wound. The Hit has the condition that it will Wound automatically. When it then does multiple Wounds, the effect of Wounding Automatically will apply to however many of them there are.
THEN any kind of defences come into play.



And at this point all any of us are doing is repeating and wewording.
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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 11:15

Squidmaster I agree that all any of us is repeating ourselves however I’m going to take this last chance and apologise to Klaivex Charondyr

Klaivex Charondyr, you are quite right and I’m wrong when I said I think that suffering a hit that wounds automatically is not a wound.

What I should have said / meant to say was: a hit that causes the model to be wounded regardless of toughness and further more causes D3 wound instead of one, does not cause a wound, it causes D3 wounds instead of a single wound.

Therefore, I strongly believe that you’re incorrect when you say that in the case of D-Weapons that these cause a wound that is then multiplied, as D3 wounds are caused INSTEAD of 1 wound. Therefore, as you are explicitly told (in the D-weapon USR) to save the hit (that causes the D3 wounds) failing this save then goes on to cause D3 wounds, the first of which the Doll negates.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 11:39

I am going to say it once more...

You never save vs hits - you have a wound (generated automatically) which is divided into pools. You save against this. This is where the NMD would kick in if you fail or don't get a save - it's an unsaved wound.

You only get dX wounds when it comes time to lose wounds - after saves.

I am baffled at this point - I have provided direct BRB quotes so don't know how else to explain it.

Lead a horse to water...

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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 11:55

The one thing I’m finding it hard to understand is why everyone is ignoring the explicit instruction in USR that you save the hit. if it wasn’t there I wouldn’t be arguing. I always thought that USR over rule normal rules
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 12:38

Multiple wounds is not the same as instant death, it's like eternal warrior. Depending on your toughness, say t6 would never be doubled out by d weapon so they would not have Instant death that the doll would negate. They would have to tank the wounds . Now if you are t5 I would say you could save a id wound with the doll, but you would still die since you get hit more than one wound.

It's like eternal warrior and d weapons. You are better off making look out sirs with higher toughness models that won't instant death at st10
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 12:49

Quote :
The one thing I’m finding it hard to understand is why everyone is ignoring the explicit instruction in USR that you save the hit.

Probably because it would create another rule condundrum as you would save before you roll on the D-tabe, rendering results of "6" useless.
Sequence would be:
Hit -> save -> roll on D-table (as the result on the D-table would already be a wound so you won't save against the hit but the wound)
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 12:51

@der-al wrote:
The one thing I’m finding it hard to understand is why everyone is ignoring the explicit instruction in USR that you save the hit. if it wasn’t there I wouldn’t be arguing. I always thought that USR over rule normal rules    

Because you can't save hits. The whole process of dealing damage fails if you try it. How do you allocate them?, what about the wound pools you must have to allocate in the first place?

It's like saying you can take saves against bolter hits. Of course you can! But you only need to if it wounds you.

@psylynt - you are wrong. If I am T5 or less and take a single D hit which results in a 2-6 result I have only taken 1 wound to fail a save against and thus the doll would work. The multiple wounds only come in when we lose the wounds - as per the rule

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Psylynt
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 13:02

So here is how I play eternal warrior that get slammed by a d weapon. Say the d weapon does a big hit and I get like 10 wounds. My character say is a 5 wound model with t5. Eternal warrior says I take only one wound for a id attack, which the d weapon would be at st10, doubling me out. So out of those 10 wounds 5 would be saved by eternal warrior, I would be left with 1 wound then I would die anyway with the the other 5 wounds.

Nightmare Doll is eternal warrior but not as good. It ignores the first ID wound, but not the rest. So say you have a three wound model at t4 and get hit with 4 st10 wounds, a d weapon for instance, your doll would tank the first id wound, then break, you would still get doubled out by the other three hits.

Like I said multiple wounds are not the same as ID and d weapons are ST 10 so t6 and higher do not have instant death vs them.

If you a t3 with the doll and my plasma skittari hit you with 9 St8 wounds your doll breaks on the first wound. It's no Different for d weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 13:10

Please do not double post. Use the edit function - Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 13:22

@Massaen wrote:
You never save vs hits - you have a wound (generated automatically) which is divided into pools. You save against this. This is where the NMD would kick in if you fail or don't get a save - it's an unsaved wound.

You only get dX wounds when it comes time to lose wounds - after saves.


But THIS right here is where the disagreement on my side is.
You do, absolutely save against wounds. You are right there.
So when a D hit causes multiple wounds, you would in theory try to save or defend against multiple wounds. You hit, generate the number of wounds you cause, and THEN try to save.

I know you've provided plenty of quotes, but so have we. THe fact is we're dealing with a poorly worded set of rules which can easily be interpreted both ways.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 13:44

No it can't - you still only generate a single wound (that wounds automatically). When you follow the actual steps you will see you only generate the dX when it comes time to lose wounds as per the D weapon rules.

A D weapon NEVER generates more saves than hits as you only get to the multiplier after saves when you lose wounds and extras are discarded so they don't overflow to the unit as per the FAQ

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Psylynt
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 13:51

You do save on the hit tho too. It's in the rule. I thought the discussion was about what to do with the wounds. You do get a saves when you roll the 2-5 on the d table. Roll of 6 no saves.

The issue is most d weapons are considered st10 ap 2 ? So saving wounds on that is not easy. Like I said eternal warrior can survive on depending on the wound count of the model and the number of wounds taken. A low t model with a doll only can save one of those wounds.

D weapons are not as scary as everyone thinks. First they get a save vs the hit, so a shot might not even wound at all. Then the wounds get saved separately too, if your models can do it with high toughness or low t eternal warrior, or a doll negation one id roll. Just hope they
Don't get a 6, otherwise just pick up your model and remove it from play, which is no fun.
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 13:53

@Psylynt wrote:
So here is how I play eternal warrior that get slammed by a d weapon. Say the d weapon does a big hit and I get like 10 wounds. My character say is a 5 wound model with t5. Eternal warrior says I take only one wound for a id attack, which the d weapon would be at st10, doubling me out. So out of those 10 wounds 5 would be saved by eternal warrior, I would be left with 1 wound then I would die anyway with the the other 5 wounds.

Nightmare Doll is eternal warrior but not as good. It ignores the first ID wound, but not the rest. So say you have a three wound model at t4 and get hit with 4 st10 wounds, a d weapon for instance, your doll would tank the first id wound, then break, you would still get doubled out by the other three hits.

Like I said multiple wounds are not the same as ID and d weapons are ST 10 so t6 and higher do not have instant death vs them.

You seem to have missed the whole thing and misunderstood me.

If you are a 3++, 2+, T5, W4 eternal warrior model and get shot at by a wraith knights heavy wraith cannons...

The WK gets 2 hits (3, 5)
The WK rolls on the D chart and gets (2,6) and generates 2 automatic wounds (as per the D weapon rules) and separates them into 2 wound pools.

The WK player elects you to take the wound pool (2) first. The weapon is AP2 so your armour is no good. You use your 3++ save. You fail the save. At this point you would be subject to ID but your eternal warrior rules means you take a single wound. Instead of losing 1 wound you lose d3 (as per the D weapon rules). The WK player rolls a 2 on the D3 and reduces you to 2 wounds.

The (6) wound pool is now applied to the character. Again its AP2 so your armour is no good but also as its a 6 on the D chart your 3++ does not work either. Again, At this point you would be subject to ID but your eternal warrior rules means you take a single wound. Instead of losing 1 wound you lose d6+6 (as per the D weapon rules). The WK player rolls a 4 on the D6 and reduces you a red smear on the table.

The doll steps in at an unsaved wound - before the dX is applied.

@Psylynt wrote:
You do save on the hit tho too. It's in the rule. I thought the discussion was about what to do with the wounds. You do get a saves when you roll the 2-5 on the d table. Roll of 6 no saves.

The issue is most d weapons are considered st10 ap 2 ? So saving wounds on that is not easy. Like I said eternal warrior can survive on depending on the wound count of the model and the number of wounds taken. A low t model with a doll only can save one of those wounds.

D weapons are not as scary as everyone thinks. First they get a save vs the hit, so a shot might not even wound at all. Then the wounds get saved separately too, if your models can do it with high toughness or low t eternal warrior, or a doll negation one id roll. Just hope they
Don't get a 6, otherwise just pick up your model and remove it from play, which is no fun.

Seriously??? have you followed the last 5 pages? You NEVER get to save vs the hit. NEVER. There is no rules backing to making a save vs a hit. You are never told how to resolve this at all. Saves only work with wounds. The only thing the D weapon chart does is roll on it instead of to wound and losing more wounds than 1 after you fail your saves.

@Psylynt wrote:
If you a t3 with the doll and my plasma skittari hit you with 9 St8 wounds your doll breaks on the first wound. It's no Different for d weapons.

Its completely different as you have multiple models firing multiple weapons with multiple shots...

I am going to let this die. I have provided complete written references with examples on how this resolves. No one else has bothered to provide any rules backing to their claims - pages/quotes etc.

Play it however you think - and if your opponent agrees - fine.

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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 14:36

Klaivex Charondyr I would find your argument compelling IF I was saying you save against the resulting hit from rolling to hit. Now this confusion is the main reason why I keep repeating myself.

So for clarity and for the record I’m NOT saying you

Roll to hit

Roll to save

Roll on the D-table

What I AM saying is

You roll to hit

Roll on the D-table

Save against the D-Table result (by D-table result I mean the HIT that causes D3 wounds as per the actual words of the D-table)

As the HIT causes D3 wounds the D3 wounds are allocated and saves are made against the HIT (that causes D3 wounds) as per the rule (which I’ve quoted numerous times)

Now this is the LAST time I clarify my stance.

The next person to say that I’m telling people to save against the hit from rolling to hit is, in my opinion, either ignorant (for not reading my posts properly) or an idiot (for not understanding the difference between a hit from rolling to hit or the resulting HIT from rolling on the D-Table that causes D3 wound).

Just to be clear I’m NOT saying people are either ignorant or idiots for disagreeing with me, I’m saying they are ignorant / idiots if they say that I’m telling people to save against the hit from rolling to hit.      

Also for the record IF (and it’s a bloody BIG IF) you can only save against wounds, then I would have to agree with Squidmaster, you would need to save the resulting D3 wounds individually.

@Massaen wrote:
I am going to let this die. I have provided complete written references with examples on how this resolves. No one else has bothered to provide any rules backing to their claims - pages/quotes etc.

REALLY have you read my posts at all? I've quoted the one rule that actually matters, but it is just disregarded.

@Der-al wrote:
(Pg 163 second column) in particular the fourth sentence which reads “Cover saves and invulnerable saves can be taken against HITS from a destroyer weapon as normal, unless a devastating hit or………”

all be it I might have miss counted the number of sentances
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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 14:41

Please do not double post. Use the edit function - Count Adhemar
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 15:10

Quote :
Save against the D-Table result (by D-table result I mean the HIT that causes D3 wounds as per the actual words of the D-table)

But the hit does not cause any wound. The hit just causes a roll on the D-table.
If you save after the table you do not save against the hit but the wound which contradicts your RAW.

Just because you keep calling the damage result "hit" it doesnt make it a hit as hit only refers to the positive result of a "to hit roll" (except for templates, blasts and a few other specialrules).
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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 15:15

the D-table result calls it a HIT that causes D3 wound NOT me
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 15:22

@der-al wrote:
the D-table result calls it a HIT that causes D3 wound NOT me

It does not.
It calls it a hit that wounds automatically and does D3 wounds instead of 1. You still save against the wound and not the hit if you roll after the table as the hit happens before you roll on the table.
Otherwise I could just choose what to save as the positive result of a "to hit roll" is (surprise) a hit.

So basically:

1) Roll to hit
2) Roll on the d-table which is also called "hit"

choose if you want to save after step 1 or 2 as both are "hits" in your interpretation.
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 15:57

My view on it:

The hit is not the wound, the wound is the injury that would be inflicted from the D-Table.

The nightmare doll states: "the Nightmare Doll automatically negates the first unsaved Wound (not hit) with the Instant Death special rule that the bearer suffers.

As no wound is caused until the D-Table has been rolled on there has been no Instant Death Wound to be saved against. As there is no instant death wound to be saved against at the point the hit was rolled there is no possibility of a save and thus no failed save for the doll to activate on at that point.

If we take the D-Table RAW then it sounds like the doll shouldn't be able to do anything against it as no saves are allowed to be taken. As no saves can be taken no saves can be failed and the doll doesn't activate on any of the wounds caused.

If you ask me about RAI I would say that the D-table rule should have said all saves of any kind are automatically failed. Thus the doll would activate on the first wound upon allocation and the rest of the wounds would still wound automatically via all saves being auto failed.

The reasoning for me is the nightmare doll clearly states failed saves while the rulebook states that those wounds are a hit. The Doll itself is not a save so it wouldn't be effected by the no save rule but is still subject to having to wait for the actual wounds to be allocated and all saves failed.
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PostSubject: Re: D vs Nightmare Doll   Sun Jun 07 2015, 16:26

How does the Doll work against wounds with ID and ap2 in that case?
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