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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Tue Jun 02 2015, 17:01

Rly, why? With 5pt HWG that you can throw and use in assault on ini, why would he need another way to harm vehicles on 2+/2+, 3+/2+ rolls. :-)

I know that ID and extra wound do serve similar purpose. It just felt fluffy - if you dont die instantly, you suffer more than with other weapons. Perhaps - puts extra wound with no saves allowed on ID-immune targets with a wound roll of 6.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Tue Jun 02 2015, 17:20

@aurynn wrote:
Rly, why? With 5pt HWG that you can throw and use in assault on ini, why would he need another way to harm vehicles on 2+/2+, 3+/2+ rolls. :-)

Because a single haywire grenade is terrible against vehicles. I might as well arm my HQ with a banana for all the good it will do.

In contrast, giving a weapon Haywire, Armourbane or somesuch would at least give characters with more attacks multiple chances to damage/destroy a vehicle in melee. With a Haywire grenade, you're looking at a minimum 3 rounds of combat just to destroy a rhino. Neutral

@aurynn wrote:
I know that ID and extra wound do serve similar purpose. It just felt fluffy - if you dont die instantly, you suffer more than with other weapons. Perhaps - puts extra wound with no saves allowed on ID-immune targets.

I doubt GW would ever allow it, but I love the idea. Laughing
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Tue Jun 02 2015, 17:29

Point is - there should NEVER be an universal weapon. Especially not striking on INI. Scorpion's Claw is kinda OK as only SS Exarchs can have them.

As for HWG - there is a very good chance that you kill any vehicle with 1-2HP left. Even Land Raider, Knight, whatever. What do you want more? :-D Single HWG is very good. I usually hit full-hp vehicles with lances, plink off a HP or two, force some stunned results perhaps or jinks and finish next round with HWBs/HWGs and laugh maniacally as my 23pts Sybarite takes 2 HP off a 250 pts Land Raider. Srsly, you dont need them everywhere, but in my opinion its great.

Chapter master CAN kill a vehicle in one assault phase, but he cannot plink that last HP off a transport with a thrown HWG and wreck the emerging squad in the assault phase. :-) And I am glad for it.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Tue Jun 02 2015, 17:39

@aurynn wrote:
Point is - there should NEVER be an universal weapon.

Except that that's the entire point of a Power Fist.

@aurynn wrote:
Especially not striking on INI.

Why not?

@aurynn wrote:

As for HWG - there is a very good chance that you kill any vehicle with 1-2HP left.

Ok, lets say you get charged by a dreadnought on 2 HPs. Please show me how a single haywire grenade can possibly kill it.

@aurynn wrote:
Even Land Raider, Knight, whatever. What do you want more?

Why are you so objectionable to a S3 weapon getting Armourbane? If Haywire Grenades are so amazing, then surely it won't make a difference?

@aurynn wrote:

Chapter master CAN kill a vehicle in one assault phase, but he cannot plink that last HP off a transport with a thrown HWG and wreck the emerging squad in the assault phase. :-) And I am glad for it.

Um... are you really unfamiliar with Meta Bombs? A Chapter Master can explode a Land Raider on full HPs with a 5pt thrown grenade.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Tue Jun 02 2015, 18:22

I do not want to antagonise you. Its just a hypotetical debate. We are debating a hypotetical weapon that will never see the light of day. No need to argue. OTOH - if the Electrocorrosive Whip had a Haywire rule... And was available for... say Helliarchs and Arena champs... umm... daydreaming again. :-)

Powerfist is at least unwieldy. But yes, its point is being all-purpose. But that does not mean every army should have that. :-) Remember - SM armies are dull and boring they need such equipment to be bearable :-D (no offence meant to anyone, just jking)

If I get charged by a dreadnought, its my fault and I shouldn't kill it. It should stomp my Archon to the ground - as I should pay for that mistake. :-D Rly, I would consider it my fault and a just punishment. Archons are not meant to fight dreadnoughts in my opinion - especially not on Dreadnought terms! :-) Hell we are not an army that is supposed to fight on enemy's terms. If we do, we die. Its the army theme and we should not wish it to change.

I am objectionable to adding 5 points cost to a weapon that does what HWG already does just because ppl want powerfist equivalent. We do not NEED armourbane on such weapon. I am objectionable to Autopick units, gear or upgrades. Which Powerfist kinda is... almost... Armourbane would do what? 4 hits, avg 2HP off AV10? Why would I even want that on a weapon when I have HWG? I am objectionable to copying other armies' gear and adding Armourbane would copies Powerfist in effect and Witchblade in rules. And lastly - DE go after living things suffering. They have special tools for dealing with Armour. And special things for dealing with Flesh. And I like it that way.

I just dont see CMs running around throwing meltabombs. Might be my meta though, so - subjective. Bad wording on my part - he can but I never saw them doing it..

Look - I have read the CWE codex and did shed a tear or rather a thousand seeing how good they made them and how "worse" (not bad) they made us. I look to the SM dex with the same anticipation. But I do love my Dark Eldar even more. Our lists require effort to build, our games require effort to win. There are hidden gems all over our codex. HWG being one of them in my eyes. I can win games with our dex. And if that does not make it really good, it at least makes it good enough for me. :-)

The only thing I would really wish for is Decurions and Formations in CWE style. Gear is an upgrade for one model. Decurions and Formations for everyone in them.

Not sure if I made myself understandable. I understand your points. But had I wanted to have a powerfist, I would just sell DE and buy SM army. It is my opinion that one should not be able to play DE and feel like a SM.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Tue Jun 02 2015, 18:56

@aurynn wrote:
I do not want to antagonise you. Its just a hypotetical debate. We are debating a hypotetical weapon that will never see the light of day. No need to argue. OTOH - if the Electrocorrosive Whip had a Haywire rule... And was available for... say Helliarchs and Arena champs... umm... daydreaming again. :-)

That would indeed be nice. Haywire would give the Whip a lot more utility.

Powerfist is at least unwieldy. But yes, its point is being all-purpose. But that does not mean every army should have that. :-) Remember - SM armies are dull and boring they need such equipment to be bearable :-D (no offence meant to anyone, just jking)

But that's the point - we're not having Power Fists. We're having Power Fist equivalents. i.e. a weapon based around the same principle, but fitting the theme/flavour of our army.

If I get charged by a dreadnought, its my fault and I shouldn't kill it. It should stomp my Archon to the ground - as I should pay for that mistake. :-D Rly, I would consider it my fault and a just punishment. Archons are not meant to fight dreadnoughts in my opinion - especially not on Dreadnought terms! :-) Hell we are not an army that is supposed to fight on enemy's terms. If we do, we die. Its the army theme and we should not wish it to change.

I guess we have different opinions on that then. Considering an Archon can easily cost as much as a Dreadnought, I don't see why it needs to be such a one-sided affair.

Although perhaps a dreadnought wasn't the best example. Consider instead something like a Mauler Fiend - which moves 12" and ignores terrain. If your archon can't hope to fight it, then your melee unit is going to be spending a lot of the game doing naff-all.


I am objectionable to adding 5 points cost to a weapon that does what HWG already does just because ppl want powerfist equivalent. Why is it that our HQs are allowed one - und precisely von! - anti-vehicle weapon? Why can't we have the option of this weapon *or* haywire grenades? Or even both, if we feel so inclined?We do not NEED armourbane on such weapon. I am objectionable to Autopick units, gear or upgrades. Which Powerfist kinda is... almost... Armourbane would do what? 4 hits, avg 2HP off AV10? Why would I even want that on a weapon when I have HWG? Because, amazingly, there are vehicles with more than 1 HP. So, the ability to do more than a single HP in melee may come in handy. I am objectionable to copying other armies' gear and adding Armourbane would copies Powerfist in effect and Witchblade in rules. And lastly - DE go after living things suffering. They have special tools for dealing with Armour. And special things for dealing with Flesh. And I like it that way.

That's a problem with the game though. As in, DE would never go after an IG armoured column - there'd be no point. But, since you can easily end up fighting such an army (or worse), this is a case where I'd rather have a fun game than perfect fluff.  tongue

I just dont see CMs running around throwing meltabombs. Might be my meta though, so - subjective. Bad wording on my part - he can but I never saw them doing it..

Nor do I - but usually because SMs simply have better options.

Look - I have read the CWE codex and did shed a tear or rather a thousand seeing how good they made them and how "worse" (not bad) they made us. I look to the SM dex with the same anticipation. But I do love my Dark Eldar even more. Our lists require effort to build, our games require effort to win. There are hidden gems all over our codex. HWG being one of them in my eyes. I can win games with our dex. And if that does not make it really good, it at least makes it good enough for me. :-)

You know I'm not suggesting that HWGs be removed, right?  Wink

The only thing I would really wish for is Decurions and Formations in CWE style. Gear is an upgrade for one model. Decurions and Formations for everyone in them.

That would indeed be nice. Though, personally, I would have liked to see some actual effort go into our book.

Not sure if I made myself understandable. I understand your points. But had I wanted to have a powerfist, I would just sell DE and buy SM army. It is my opinion that one should not be able to play DE and feel like a SM.

Do you really think the weapon would feel like a power fist if you added armourbane? I mean, what you've effectively got is a meltagun with -5 strength. I can't see it feeling the same. Out of interest though, would Rending be any better?

In any case, I expect you'd start to feel like DE again the moment your opponent gets to swing against your T3. Very Happy


Oh, one other thing I wanted to bring up. You asked earlier about why you'd want an Armourbane weapon when you could have HWGs. One other answer I'd suggest is fluff. Perhaps HWGs don't fit your Archon's fluff/model for whatever reason - but you'd still like a way to scratch vehicles.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Tue Jun 02 2015, 19:05

Ehehe... nice T-joke. :-D

Yes - we are talking equivalents. But even that is too close for me. :-)

I dont want to stray off topic, so will PM you regarding the 200pts vs. 200pts. :-)
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