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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Power fists?   Wed May 27 2015, 12:01

Should the True Kin have a power fist style weapo n they can bring for CC? Inmeam true enough your warriors should not be charging anything but a lone and shot up tau unit. The this ught just crossed my mind.

Maybe something like a poison 2 up or something. One guy only though. Thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Wed May 27 2015, 12:03

Like the Venom Blade?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Wed May 27 2015, 12:14

Or the Ichor Injector?
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Wed May 27 2015, 12:16

Well more venom blade, less ichor injector. If our troops could walk around with lethal dose then that is like us have a kiss of death, but for all attacks.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Wed May 27 2015, 12:49

We use to be able to give Venom blades to every character in the last book.

Alas, no longer.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Wed May 27 2015, 17:55

ichor injector would be a good addition. It has a small chance of instant death and wounds on a 2+. Thats alot more fair than a powerfist...

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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Wed May 27 2015, 18:14

It is like a better kiss of death, so I could not see it. Besides that is a haemoculus coven thing not a kabalite.
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Archon Rievect
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Fri May 29 2015, 21:55

I never saw venom blades as op since you always got a save against them,they just wouned on a 2..plus since you could not equip a whole unit with them,wish we could for 1 unit, there was not much chance of killing any uber ic or monster out right. Stupid idea to pull them, gw is the big suck.
Now I firmly believe wyches ccw should be 4+ poisoned OR there needs to be a option to assign 1 lovely lhamie to a unit to give them the shaimesh poison rule..just one unit in the army. Oh their splinter pistols should get it also..kind of balances the the crap save,no save against shooting and over watch...
Maybe a DE version of Harley kiss ..
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Fri May 29 2015, 22:12

Given the scope of types of poisons employed by Dark Eldar, I don't think it would be a stretch to make up a different kind of poisoned weapon with effects other than always wounding on a given number.

Alternatively, the Haemonculi are well established as having a vast array of arcane devices. It's reasonable that one of them might be some sort of horrific little box with an effect kinda like a power fist in some way.

How are we defining "like a power fist?" Devastating melee effect but happens on Initiative step 1?

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Fri May 29 2015, 22:18

Well, we do have the agoniser - Sybarites and Hekatrixes alike can take it. It costs as much as a power fist so it should be as good. Remember that a powerfist is both unwieldy and a specialist weapon, so either you have to shell out another 15 points to get a lightning claw or you not only strike at Initiative 1 but you have 1 less attack than you would otherwise. The agoniser has neither of these drawbacks so it should suffer somewhat in killing power if it stays at the same price. I personally think it is quite good for MC removal as most MC's have no better than a 3+ AS anyways. Although, the inclusion of an AP2 poisoned melee weapon would be awesome. Basically the only AP2 melee we have are Incubi, Archite Glaive, and Drazhar unless I'm forgetting something Haemonculi related. I really miss the AP2 Huskblade. The extra 10 points were so worth it.

To OP: What ideally (within reason) would you want this melee weapon to be like? What stats would it have and what point cost would it be (I love creating new rules, esp. if they're fluffy, and Dark Eldar with killy weapons is very fluffy).

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Sat May 30 2015, 01:00

Casting the agonizer as a power fist analogue is interesting, but considering that it is the same or less effective than a marine's power weapon in most circumstances (most models being T 3 or 4), we're spending a lot of points for severely diminishing returns. Also, remember that the power fist is excellent for punching holes in vehicles (as well as monstrous creatures).

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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Sat May 30 2015, 04:01

I see only having strength 3/4 weapons as kind of a joke. One of our biggest weaknesses isn't that we don't have good wargear, it's that only a select few of our units have access to it. I would like to see a melee weapon that gives +2 strength at least. Nothing with unwieldy, for fluff purposes, but something that can allow characters to melee vehicles before turn 4.
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Sat May 30 2015, 05:17

Our Melee for Vehicles is the same ideology as Nids.... Grost and Talos.

I dont think this will ever change not at least for the next 2 books.

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HokutoAndy
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Sat May 30 2015, 08:44

@JackKnife01 wrote:
Should the True Kin have a power fist style weapo n they can bring for CC? Inmeam true enough your warriors should not be charging anything but a lone and shot up tau unit. The this ught just crossed my mind.

Maybe something like a poison 2 up or something. One guy only though. Thoughts?

When writing up my own DE codex I gave the "anti heavy infantry and vehicles" role to the Punisher/Klaive/Archite Glaive/two handed power weapon with a big choppy blade:

Klaive
"Klaives are a favorite weapon of Dark Eldar duelists (particularly the dreaded Incubi), taking the form of long curved blades held mounted on sword and polearm hilts. In the hands of a skilled warrior this heavy blade's powered monomolecular edge can sheer through the thickest of armor."

*+1 strength
* ap3
*two handed
*master crafted
*Smash USR (reduce attacks to double strength and gain armorbane and ap2)

So in the hands of the Incubi their punisher either strikes at their regular number of attacks at s4 ap3, or they can use a smash attack to deliver a single s8 ap2 armorbane attack. The master-crafted lets them reroll their crucial single smash attack to open up terminators and medium vehicles.

In the hands of an Archon they'd deliver two s8 ap2 hits, and again the master crafted helps with accuracy. Against lighter targets you'd just go with your 4 s4 ap3 strikes.

I figured that terminators can rely on their thick armor to ward off blows before they deliver their power fist blows, but it's more suitable for Dark Eldar to reduce attacks for a few deadly slashes at their initiative.

*I also think the CWE scorpion's claw needs to be nerfed a bit to just grant the smash USR, as right now it feels weird that the CWE have this PERFECT STRIKING AT INITIATIVE PFIST but just choose to restrict it to one aspect shrine as every other HQ and Exarch uses inferior weapons.
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Sat May 30 2015, 22:36

The scorpions claw did receive a mild nerf. I believe it can only be strength 6 which is great for killing MC and champions in challenge. It does okay against most transports but, he's not bringing down a land raider. If they nerfed it more it would really destroy the scorpions usefulness. Okay they would still be okay against smallish light units but, would stand very little chance against any armored CC sqauds (they really aren't great against those anyway).
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Sun May 31 2015, 06:32

Seriously? Smash to Klaives? :-D Soooo... (pardon my irony here but I love irony) you want a unit of 5 incubi almost autokill a Land Raider costing double their points who cant even fire overwatch on them? Or perhaps putting 2 wounds per phase on a WK? Or wait! I know - multicharging vehicles and killing 2 per turn! :-) That would certainly be a payback for the weak dex we have and the strong ones the others get. Guys, we get a FC - armywide. Even our warriors can glance normal vehicles with that. You want to go killing vehicles in melee? Why dont you take KRP + Animus and go super bonzo? Or perhaps RSR and overload on bikes + Grot formation? I really do not consider our gear as weak. It is not top, but it is not weak. Everything we need is there - right in our dex. It COULD be better, but we certainly do not need to go wishlisting smashes on Klaives or Powerfists. :-) If anyone wants to play a game that is balanced because everyone has almost the same options (thus making it a bit bland), they should consider Horus Heresy. There is no "but... but... they have a +2S AP2 weapon and I dont!" Why do people wish for "what the other army has"? I for one do not want to have the same options as Marines only with some creepy name. :-)
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Sun May 31 2015, 16:10

Just throwing this out there, but Eldar get a PF that strikes at initiative...
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Sun May 31 2015, 22:37

@The Shredder wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but Eldar get a PF that strikes at initiative...

Just throwing this out there, Eldar get everything better than Everyone.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Mon Jun 01 2015, 14:24

@amishprn86 wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but Eldar get a PF that strikes at initiative...

Just throwing this out there, Eldar get everything better than Everyone.

Sad but true.


Anyway, I guess the question is what exactly defines a Power Fist? It's something of an all-comers weapon, being able to take on TEQ, MCs and vehicles, whilst also pulverising T3-4 models with multiple wounds. The single downside is that it's slow - striking at I1.

So, here are my thoughts:
- Firstly, striking at I1 is out. It doesn't fit our army's style, and it gives up what it possibly our only advantages in melee.
- On a similar vein, we shouldn't be doubling our strength either. Eldar nonsense aside, that's the sort of thing that should carry a penalty. Also, again, I'm not sure it fits our theme.
- AP2, however, should stay.

So, here's what I'd suggest: AP2 Poison 3+, and the ability to halve your base number of attacks (rounded up), but gain Haywire.
- AP2 for obvious reasons
- Poison 3+ is something of a compromise between Fleshbane and crappy 4+ poison - mainly because a AP2 Fleshbane weapon striking at initiative might be a bit much (though we could easily have a more expensive Artefact version with e.g. Master Crafted and Fleshbane).
- The Haywire effect is because this weapon should be able to harm vehicles, but obviously can't accomplish this with high strength, and a single haywire attack would be pretty awful.

Importantly though, this should cost a *maximum* of 25pts. The Agoniser is badly in need of a price drop (probably down to 15), and power swords should be 5pts.
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Mon Jun 01 2015, 15:28

Shredder I was thinking along the same lines as you as I read through the earlier posts - I'm thinking something with a dual profile, so basically an anti-personnel role but with a haywire field attached. I'd be happy for poison 4+ if it came with AP2, perhaps along the lines of the glaive so you can focus all your attacks on using it for AP2 but -1A, or AP3 but lets you gain the bonus attack for 2 CCW.

Regarding the haywire profile you should never be able to strip more than 1 HP, but for each hit you gain over the first, you add 1 to the haywire effect roll (so 3 hits gets you a pen on 4+) and you can still choose the AP2 profile to give you a chance of blowing it up if you want to risk taking the explosion to the face.

That results in something like the following

Profile 1
Range: Melee
Strength: 1 - Poison 3+
AP: 3

Special rules
Haywire - the haywire effect can never remove more than 1 hull point but additional haywire hits after the first add +1 to the haywire roll.

Profile 2
Range: Melee
Strength: 1 - Poison 4+
AP:2

Special rules
Haywire - the haywire effect can never remove more than 1 hull point but additional haywire hits after the first add +1 to the haywire roll.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Mon Jun 01 2015, 15:42

I don't see the need for restricting the number of HPs you can strip.

Likewise, if we're making it Poison 4+ (sigh), then why not just give the Agoniser back its AP2 and call it a day?
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Mon Jun 01 2015, 15:49

Why not make it the electro whip that wounds on a 4up and has haywire (fits) but is AP4 to balance out. Great against necrons, does something new and because of the second special rule is AP4. Also fits inline with the other haywire weapons (being AP4).
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Mon Jun 01 2015, 16:07

@JackKnife01 wrote:
Why not make it the electro whip that wounds on a 4up and has haywire (fits) but is AP4 to balance out. Great against necrons, does something new and because of the second special rule is AP4. Also fits inline with the other haywire weapons (being AP4).

I'm not sure I'd describe a few AP4 attacks as "great against Necrons".

Let's say your warrior squad charges a unit of Warriors. Your electro-whip guy has 4 attacks. He's WS4 so that's 2 hits. 4+ poison means 1 wound. After RP that's, at best, 2/3 of a wound.

So, if you're lucky, your anti-necron weapon has killed a single dude. Boy I'm sure that Necron player is just crapping his pants. Rolling Eyes

Hell, let's say you've given this almighty weapon to an Archon or Succubus (no, I don't care which - take your pick). 6 attacks, hitting on 3s means 4 hits. 2 of those will wound and about 1 will get through Necro-no-pain. But, hell, let's say both get through (no one uses Decurion, right?). Your combat HQ has killed all of 2 Necrons. Is that going to win you the combat? Or, what if you're against immortals? Or an Overlord? Or one of the many Necrons with a 3+ save? Yeah, that AP4 anti-Necron weapon will sure come in handy.

Sorry for massive sarcasm, but I just don't see the point of making a DE version of a power fist... only to systematically remove every single advantage power fists have. It just seems pointless.

Why no AP2? We're supposed to be making the equivalent of a Power Fist - not a bread knife. Likewise, what is it with 4+ poison melee weapons? I think it's fair to say our shooting has 4+ poison covered. Considering the risks of even getting into combat, 3+ poison on what is ostensibly our power fists (you know, those things that wound virtually anything in the game on 2s) seems perfectly reasonable.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Tue Jun 02 2015, 06:38

Look at it this way - do we want to strike at ini 1? I dont think so. Scorpion's Claw equivalent then? Naaah... CWE got that and they would say we just stole it. We are experts at harming flesh and bone, so Poison, Fleshbane, why not. AP2? Yeeea... Our leaders should have access to some of the nastiest stuff in the galaxy. We need to be able to harm vehicles in CC? We have haywire grenades. I certainly do not see an archon or succubus as a vehicle killer. One HP per shooting phase and one more per assault phase with HWG is more than enough.

So for our nasty-nasty ultimate weapon choice I would go with something like S-User, AP2, Fleshbane, ID on 6 to wound. For each unsaved wound caused roll a D6. On 4+ the victim model suffers another wound with no saves of any kind allowed.

If my math is correct, this would mean like 1 wound on EW 3++ model, with possible extra wound. And would murder MCs, WKs, Bikers, basically anything with T and without invul. SS termies would still be a problem, but I dont think we should have an universal weapon. I would evaluate this weapon at 30 pts. Considering that an archon with just this weapon will pay himself doubly the moment he jumps almost any MC. :-) This is outweighed by squishiness of the archon and unreliability of SF. You would need to invest into a delivery system for him, but IF he gets somewhere, he will put hurt there.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Power fists?   Tue Jun 02 2015, 10:23

I could get behind that weapon.

My only suggestion is that it you remove either the ID on 6s or the extra wound on 4+. They serve similar purposes, and I think having both just makes it a bit messy.


With regard to killing vehicles, what if it had armourbane as well? It sounds impressive at first, but with S3 our characters will need average dice just to glance AV10. Still, the chance to hurt vehicles would be nice.
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