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Somnicide
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PostSubject: Considering a return to the grimdark   Thu May 07 2015, 19:11

Hello, I used to play 40k for a long time, (2nd, 3rd,3.5, 4th) then basically got kind of tired of the gw "stuff" and moved on to another game. I went to tourneys and cons and balance was important to me and I got a bit frustrated.

Some of my friends are trying to lure me back, my life has changed, kids mostly, but I am definitely coming back as a more casual player and going strictly off aesthetics, background, and speed way of water style that means Dark Eldar. (I play Legion of Everblight in Hordes and Neverborn in Malifaux for reference).

I'm still competitive by nature but I don't have that same drive to go to tourneys like I used to, so I am okay being s but underpowered. Since I'm going aesthetic and I am an old timer, I'd rather not bring in other detachments aside from harlequins for fluff reasons. I have the opportunity to pick up quite a bit of dark eldar for a very reasonable price - a number of Raiders, 3 ravagers, 1 of the flyers, some venoms, lots of wyches, lots of warriors, some grotesques, some new plastic big pain engine thingies (can't remember name), some beast master units, bikes, hellions, and 2 of the big battle foam 1520s to hold it all.

Okay, all that background being said, I am worried about setting myself up for heartbreak. I don't need to win all the time, but I'd like to have a chance to win most games - at least a coin toss. Should I pass on the dark eldar and go with something else. The four guys I would be mostly playing against play Space Wolves, Tau, Blood Angels, and Daemons/Nurgle Chaos Marines.

Thanks!


Last edited by Somnicide on Thu May 07 2015, 19:35; edited 1 time in total
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Considering a return to the grimdark   Thu May 07 2015, 19:25

The Tau are going to give you troubles but you'll easily be able to beat the others. That being said, DE have the hardest learning curve of all codex. You'll need to learn how to play them but once this is done, you'll be perflectly fine even with a pure DE list (You may have to add some Scourges to your army for AT purpose though).
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Somnicide
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PostSubject: Re: Considering a return to the grimdark   Thu May 07 2015, 19:39

Okay good to know, thanks. Is there still a wych cult option? I seem to have a ton of them.
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Considering a return to the grimdark   Thu May 07 2015, 20:35

There's a compelling argument that Wyches are terrible and you should never use them. I find myself going back and forth on whether or not I agree with it.

The problem with Wyches is they're an assault unit that isn't good at actually hurting things and that will suffer a great deal because of overwatch.

That said, if your drugs are good, by late game Wyches could be effective. Once they have Furious Charge and Rage, potentially combined with +1 attack or strength from their drugs, it seems like they could kill some stuff. Piling them on Raiders and then keeping them out of harm's way while shooting at enemy armor until they've powered up seems like the way to do it.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Considering a return to the grimdark   Fri May 08 2015, 05:00

I don't think that wyches suck. Sure, they aren't Assault Marines but they are a lot cheaper. You have to understand that they lost the ability to hunt tanks because they lost Haywire Grenades. But they are good in close combat against many things. You just have to get them into the actual Combat. But that is a problem with the edition. You have to know that they have a 4+ invulnerable save in close combat but not against overwatch fire.

If you aren't playing the Iles competitive crowd you'll do fine. It's right, they are hard to master as an army, but the models are beautiful and it is much more fun to play because of the speed and nasty tricks. It feels much more tactical as with space Marines for example. I am currently winning about 60-70 percent of my games against friends. Only one very good chaos and oaks player is giving me head ache. But it's fun nevertheless

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PostSubject: Re: Considering a return to the grimdark   Fri May 08 2015, 05:19

Quote :
The four guys I would be mostly playing against play Space Wolves, Tau, Blood Angels, and Daemons/Nurgle Chaos Marines.
You will do fine. Those are not easiest opponents, but not unbeatable either. It will be close games.

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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: Re: Considering a return to the grimdark   Fri May 08 2015, 15:37

Tau will give you issues. They have ignore cover weapons that laugh at our jinking. I run a pure dark Eldar list and use lots of gunboats and ravagers. I win plenty of games to still have fun, but I rely on jinking to save half my boats every turn. Ignore cover weapons make things a lot tougher. Venoms have that 5+ invol however.
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PostSubject: Re: Considering a return to the grimdark   Sat May 09 2015, 08:34

As mentioned before, Tau bring on a lot of firepower, but they suck in close combat and their battlesuits are quite vulnerable to poison and lances.
I would make the units with Marker Lights my first target, because they will be a big thorn in your side. Either assault them with Wyches or Kymerae, or use a portaling squad (even deep-striking Hellions can work) if they are hiding. Hellions can also be quite effective against non-battlesuit Tau characters.
Then proceed to do attack the battlesuits, starting with the largest. Warriors (shooting, of course) or Wracks are more likely than Wyches to kill battlesuits (unless you add a Succubus with a better weapon), but the point of assaulting Tau is first and foremost to keep them from shooting.
Either way, you should use Raiders to get your infantry into rapid fire or charge range respectively. After that, the transports are little more than a distraction. Keep them as cheap as possible; maybe even use Disintegrators instead of Dark Lances. Terror Gas Launchers are worth considering though, if there is no (more) Ethereal around. Our vehicles generally don't survive very long in front of Tau though (Fire Warriors can still have Haywire Grenades!), so the usual gunboats and weapon platforms would probably end up being a waste of points.
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PostSubject: Re: Considering a return to the grimdark   Sat May 09 2015, 13:46

You talked about balance, Actually MANY of the codex's are very balanced right now, there are only 2 that most will agree arnt balanced.

Eldar and Nids... Eldar is top dog and it looks like GW wants it to be that way, they got 2 new Codexs in less than 2years apart, both being really strong.

Nids are by far the worst book ever made... but GW then came out with another Supplement for them that gave them a Way to Spam Flyrants (Flying Hive Tyrants) and a 15pt Troop that is a S8 AP4 Large Blast, with DS and Shrouded. (But DE just wrecks the Nids tournament lists)

but Orcs, DE, Tau, SM and MEQ, IG, Daemons are all very close to the same power levels. If Eldar was tone down it be a different story.

I know you wanted some DE ideas, but I figure I'd let you know, so when you start playing games you have a basic understanding of the current meta.

As for the ones you talked about fight:

Daemons - Should be easy for you actuall
BA - This could be harder, alot of Storm Ravens, they have a formation that is 3 Storm Ravens with some troops that can Charge the turn they come in
SW - My best friend plays them highly Competitive, and with my Marines armies I cant win, but I can win with DE, they are always fun games and close ones Smile
CSM - One of the weaker armies, Nurgle is still really good, with poison wouldnt be hard you for tho.
Tau - Can remove your Jink, will be a bloody battle for both of you. Both armies are 24-36" ranger fights and you both have answers for each other.

PS: For those if wondering, his SW army is a 9 man unit that is always Invis/3++ with 4+ FnP 3 Fliers and some other basic SW units for ObjSec in Pods (I think 5?)

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Somnicide
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PostSubject: Re: Considering a return to the grimdark   Sun May 10 2015, 22:40

Okay this is great info and the new scenario cards seem to be an interesting move toward balance. Some of the psyker abilities seem kind of crazy, how does DE deal with that in faction?
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PostSubject: Nothing really effective against psykers   Mon May 11 2015, 02:55

I'm in a very similar boat, coming back for 6th-7th edition after quitting multiple times since 2nd.  I also gathered a huge amount of models for practically nothing (albeit mostly the older models), and have committed heavily to the dark kin as I've sold off almost everything else.

As far as psykers go we have a couple artifacts that sort of work in the right conditions.  The helm of spite may be the most potent and causes a 12" bubble of adamantium will, which also makes psykers way more likely to roll perils.  Eldar, who are the most prevalent psykers besides grey knights are pretty much immune to this effect though.

Haemys can take crucibles of malediction which hit any unit with any psyker rule within 3d6 inches with a strength 6 hit, no armor saves allowed at all.  One shot only or it'd actually be effective.

In my opinion, for a society of latent psykers who's culture's revolves around the absolute suppression of psykers - our psychic defenses are a joke.

However the simple addition of a Culexus assassin changes that a lot.  I didn't have too much trouble fluff wise accepting one as they read like something the dark eldar should have developed anyway.  I converted one from an plastic wych and all kinds of bits and he's scary vs psykers.  The more the merrier.
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PostSubject: Re: Considering a return to the grimdark   Mon May 11 2015, 03:13

The glib response is "Kill them."

We have two anti-psyker devices.

Every Haemonculus can bring a Crucible of Malediction, a one-use item that inflicts a S6 hit on every unit containing a psyker within 3d6", with no saves of any kind allowed. People don't bring them because they cost the same as two Wracks, and because they don't hit the actual psyker, just the unit that he's in. On the other hand, you may still be able to hit the psyker with careful positioning, and even if you can't, psykers tend to hang out in units of expensive models, so it's entirely possible that you'll be able to kill more points worth of the psyker's friends than you spent on the Crucible.

Your other option is the Helm of Spite, a relic which gives friendly units within 12" Adamantium Will, and causes enemy psykers within 12" to suffer perils on any double. The Helm of Spite is good, but our HQs can only take one relic apiece, so it tends to lose out to other choices.

I haven't had to play against it yet, but the psychic power people hate most seems to be Invisibility. As I understand it, Invisibility doesn't protect against Hammer of Wrath, so your best bet there may be Reavers with caltrops.

After facing psykers in nearly every game, I got fed up with the phase I didn't get to play in and added a Crucible to my list. In my first game with it, against Grey Knights, it killed over 50 points of marines. Since that game, for whatever reason, none of my opponents have had psykers. (I'm sure they're not scared off by the Crucible; I think it's just coincidence.) I'm tempted to take it out of the list, but I love the Haemonculus models that are holding little Hellraiser boxes, and I want them to represent something.

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PostSubject: Re: Considering a return to the grimdark   Wed May 13 2015, 13:49

I began 40k stuff in 1988, but gave it up in 1991 and I was out of the scene for decades, until a friend who was collecting 40k for fun and painting/modelling projects lured me back in with the idea of 200 point Kill Team games (if you fancy a go, the rules are on http://heralds-of-ruin.blogspot.co.uk/ )

This got out of hand VERY quickly as I loved getting immersed back in the thrill of games, the fluff of the Grimdark and all of it.

I now have a 3,500 point CSM force and am steadily building my DE Kabal, Cult and Coven as well as an allied force of Exodite/Corsairs.

Be guided by your instincts. If you want to play against friends, there's more scope for choosing an army that appeals to you, rather than chooosing one that's hard as nails in battles. I lost pretty much every time I took the CSM out until I learned tactics and got some heavy support. It was bloody brilliant fun though!

I love the Dark Eldar because the fluff really appeals to me (I'm a narrative gamer first, second and well you get it) and the models are exquisite.

The codex looks difficult to master, as you need to think carefully about which units are right for which jobs. I agree with what's been said earlier about Wyches needing support to get into CC, and You'll need to carefully consider Kabalite Tueborn, Scourges and Ravagers as the units that can be equipped with anti-armour weaponry.

I'm approaching it as a Combined Arms Detachment which fits the fluff I've created.

The Kabal of the Tormented Sky - Illya Rathian's raiders of real space. Kabalite warriors in Raiders as main scoring units, with truborn and Scourges providing firepower. Eventually will have Razorwing support
The Cult of the Blade's Caress - Wych cult built around multiple small units in Venoms to close with enemy fast. Beast master for chaff (I like the idea of pack of dire wolves from Vampire Counts WFB as substitutes for Khymerae) Hellions and Reavers for lots of Fast Nasty
The Masters of Metamorphosis - Haemonculus Coven providing tough troops in Wracks with Talos support.
Lots of varied modelling and painting as each has it's own colour scheme and each has a particular strength.


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