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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sat May 09 2015, 16:54

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@mightydoughnut wrote:
With 2 Dark Lances, 6 Splinter Cannon shots and 4 S6 AP5 Large Blast missiles you get an insanely versatile flyer than can provide both ground control and aerial superiority

I'll certainly agree they are versatile but the problem is that they're simply not very good at any of the roles that they can do.

2 non twin-linked, BS4 Dark Lances really aren't going to worry most vehicles and will struggle to destroy more than a single vehicle during the entire duration of a game (vs AV11, just over 5 HP in 6 turns on average, not counting cover or invulnerable saves). Best result would probably be forcing an enemy flyer to jink. Compare that to a Crimson Hunter and it's not even funny!

1 non twin-linked Splinter Cannon is also not going to cause too much concern to FMC's, causing roughly 4 wounds over the entire battle and not even forcing them to jink due to AP5.

4 S6 AP5 large blasts CAN be devastating but again, not twin-linked so subject to scatter that could take them off target completely or reduce the number of hits scored. Also, lack of ignores cover hurts against weaker opponents and lack of AP hurts against better armoured ones.

I would gladly sacrifice one of the roles above in order to better at the other two.

Overall, I've never been impressed with the Razorwing in game. In fact, I actually gave my Razorwing model to a friend!


Rather thank retyping exactly the same thing ... here is my answer to the above 2 questions.

It arrives, shoots 4 missiles and probably kills a couple of MEQ models. It leaves the table, because it's jinked or it's not in position for it's next shot or would leave it in range of too many things that will just shoot it out of the sky. It comes back on turn 4 or 5 and gets to shoot 2 Dark Lances and a Splinter cannon. Not a distraction, not enough shooting and not on the table enough to warrant it's points. My opinion of course.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sat May 09 2015, 17:50

Why should it leave the table after arriving? I'd never let that happen.
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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sat May 09 2015, 19:28

Quote :
It arrives, shoots 4 missiles and probably kills a couple of MEQ models. It leaves the table, because it's jinked or it's not in position for it's next shot or would leave it in range of too many things that will just shoot it out of the sky. It comes back on turn 4 or 5 and gets to shoot 2 Dark Lances and a Splinter cannon. Not a distraction, not enough shooting and not on the table enough to warrant it's points.

What you describe here is a typical case of bad fielding scenario - flyers are tricky models and their positioning requires some degree of training to utilize but all of the above situations can be managed with good positioning, unless you just take one, in which case, as I stated, is not how it should work.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sat May 09 2015, 21:37

@Hellstrom wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@mightydoughnut wrote:
With 2 Dark Lances, 6 Splinter Cannon shots and 4 S6 AP5 Large Blast missiles you get an insanely versatile flyer than can provide both ground control and aerial superiority

I'll certainly agree they are versatile but the problem is that they're simply not very good at any of the roles that they can do.

2 non twin-linked, BS4 Dark Lances really aren't going to worry most vehicles and will struggle to destroy more than a single vehicle during the entire duration of a game (vs AV11, just over 5 HP in 6 turns on average, not counting cover or invulnerable saves). Best result would probably be forcing an enemy flyer to jink. Compare that to a Crimson Hunter and it's not even funny!

1 non twin-linked Splinter Cannon is also not going to cause too much concern to FMC's, causing roughly 4 wounds over the entire battle and not even forcing them to jink due to AP5.

4 S6 AP5 large blasts CAN be devastating but again, not twin-linked so subject to scatter that could take them off target completely or reduce the number of hits scored. Also, lack of ignores cover hurts against weaker opponents and lack of AP hurts against better armoured ones.

I would gladly sacrifice one of the roles above in order to better at the other two.

Overall, I've never been impressed with the Razorwing in game. In fact, I actually gave my Razorwing model to a friend!


Rather thank retyping exactly the same thing ... here is my answer to the above 2 questions.

It arrives, shoots 4 missiles and probably kills a couple of MEQ models.  It leaves the table, because it's jinked or it's not in position for it's next shot or would leave it in range of too many things that will just shoot it out of the sky.  It comes back on turn 4 or 5 and gets to shoot 2 Dark Lances and a Splinter cannon.  Not a distraction, not enough shooting and not on the table enough to warrant it's points.  My opinion of course.


Well, in an army like the ours, if the enemy shoot against the Razorwing, I'm totally happy Smile

It is a great distraction, to me.
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sun May 10 2015, 08:13

What are better replacements than the Razorwing?

I'm thinking something that can a ride a venom, and then 1 ravager.

Archon Court (either Sslyth or Medusae)?
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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sun May 10 2015, 08:27

Quote :
What are better replacements than the Razorwing?

I'm thinking something that can a ride a venom, and then 1 ravager.

Archon Court (either Sslyth or Medusae)?

That's basically it - we have no viable replacement for the Razorwing, as there is no unit that does what it does at 150 points. I wouldn't replace it with a Ravager, as it is very weak in the new codex - it usually costs around 120 points, giving you 3 Dark Lance shots, which is worse than 4 Scourges/Trueborn with 4 Blasters against tanks, not to mention Scourges with Haywire, but if you drop the Razorwing, think what role did it fulfill in your army? Additional anti-tank? Then take some scourges with haywire. Need to kill hordes? Get 4-5 Medusae in a Venom. Something to kill high T units? Get more kabalites with tons of poison shots.

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sun May 10 2015, 08:52

Looking for something that enables my army to assault.

That said Reavers is the only thing that is just as versatile as a Razorwing.

If not Ravagers, I was thinking Scourges w/ Blasters, for versatility against vehicles, land-based monstrous creatures, and instant death anyone w/ T4. Haywire is too single target for me.

3 units of reavers (just caltrops), 3 units of scourges (1 w/ Heat Lances, 2 w/ Blasters) would be my idea of an alternative and save me money, but would leave me short in the Department of Raiders & Venoms.

But I would have a lot of anti-tank (if somewhat vulnerable to bolter fire)

16 blasters, 4 Heat Lances for AV 13-14, and then those with 3x 2D6 Caltrops for anything below AV 12.

Or its just the two scourges, and the reavers armed with blasters- for a grand total of 22, with enough points to bulk my assault units.
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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sun May 10 2015, 09:03

Quote :
Looking for something that enables my army to assault.
Get Grotesquerie formation.

Quote :
3 units of scourges (1 w/ Heat Lances

Waste of points if you don't take a taxi with WWP. Archon fits nicely with a blaster here.

Quote :
But I would have a lot of anti-tank (if somewhat vulnerable to bolter fire)
As our army is kinda paper-mache, you should either flood with mass or get some tough guys to take away shots, like Talos or aforementioned Grots, you could also prey to get Toughness drugs (or cheat Very Happy) for your Reavers so they don't explode in overwatch.

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sun May 10 2015, 09:20

@mightydoughnut wrote:
Quote :
Looking for something that enables my army to assault.
Get Grotesquerie formation.

Quote :
3 units of scourges (1 w/ Heat Lances

Waste of points if you don't take a taxi with WWP. Archon fits nicely with a blaster here.

Quote :
But I would have a lot of anti-tank (if somewhat vulnerable to bolter fire)
As our army is kinda paper-mache, you should either flood with mass or get some tough guys to take away shots, like Talos or aforementioned Grots, you could also prey to get Toughness drugs (or cheat Very Happy) for your Reavers so they don't explode in overwatch.

It's always the Grots that gets mentioned, when I really wanted to use Incubi. (It's most likely Grots w/ WWP caddies)

I may tinker a list that can include enough blasters. No WWP shenanigans for the Grots though, in Raiders most likely.
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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sun May 10 2015, 09:26

I never WWP grots, they are my first turn deployers so I can rush, charge something and watch my opponent squirm as he wastes a turn of shoting at empty Raiders. Very Happy
Grots always get mentioned simply because they are way better than Incubi - don't get me wrong, the horny guys got the best models in our army, but their combat capability is sub-par at best, due to 1 wound, low toughness and strength outside of charge turn, while Grots have 3 wounds, same WS, better weapons, can even kill a Dreadnought in CC if you roll good mutations from the Grotesquerie or take on the new Wraithknight and win (confirmed several times, especially when they get +1 T thanks to mutations, then they seriously screw them over as it may no longer instant them) and offer a plethora of services, from killing off enitre squads of terminators, mincing Greater Daemons to mush and flipping tanks or just being a general fire magnet.

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sun May 10 2015, 10:01

@mightydoughnut wrote:
I never WWP grots, they are my first turn deployers so I can rush, charge something and watch my opponent squirm as he wastes a turn of shoting at empty Raiders. Very Happy
Grots always get mentioned simply because they are way better than Incubi - don't get me wrong, the horny guys got the best models in our army, but their combat capability is sub-par at best, due to 1 wound, low toughness and strength outside of charge turn, while Grots have 3 wounds, same WS, better weapons, can even kill a Dreadnought in CC if you roll good mutations from the Grotesquerie or take on the new Wraithknight and win (confirmed several times, especially when they get +1 T thanks to mutations, then they seriously screw them over as it may no longer instant them) and offer a plethora of services, from killing off enitre squads of terminators, mincing Greater Daemons to mush and flipping tanks or just being a general fire magnet.

Succubus, Archon, Haemonculus, Incubi, Grots, Wyches, Trueborns, Reavers would form the components of my list- sent you a PM.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sun May 10 2015, 11:00

Others have said...

"2 Darklances rarely do anything" - I agree.

"150pts is too much for what it does" - I agree again.

When I do run a razorwing I run it stock, 130 pts with dissies.
Its there to put wounds on light-heavy infantry (which it does) and take fire from other fliers and AA platforms who would otherwise be pounding my skimmers (which it does).

Im happy with it.
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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sun May 10 2015, 12:41

I run it 130 pts also. I see him as a one shot weapon:
- cheap way to clean blobs, often bring back his points only with 4 missiles
- after missiles are used, I'm happy if the opponent waste his firepower on en empty fllyer (hit only on 6)
- if it is ignored we have 2 dissie to hunt elites/rear armor until the end of the game. Not bad

I see the RWJF a different threat than the rest of the codex. While like others said he is not the best in a single role, but still he adds a tool against mass infantry and FMC.

and it's a gorgeous model Smile
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Thu May 14 2015, 11:25

I do think the Razorwings strongest threat and weapon is the fact that is can take so many wingmen. I ran 3 and did 55 wounds to a 16 man space wolf unit. After the stormfang was destroyed, the previous turn I believe.
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