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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Razorwing Loadouts   Thu May 07 2015, 17:38

Trying to think of what I should arm the Razorwing with-

Lances for AA/AT, or Dissie and Cannon for infantry-killing?

The rest of my list has Reavers, Wyches, Incubi + Succubus as the core of my assault force, whilst I have Trueborn and Ravagers for 'tank-hunting'.
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Thu May 07 2015, 18:19

I know people prefer to specialize their RJF but I run mine with DL and SC. It gives me some AA and it's pretty good to wound FMC. Sure, my missile aren't that usueful if I goes after tanks or flyers but I like having the option.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Thu May 07 2015, 19:35

I don't like Razorwings. They suck badly against any army that doesn't put out a load of troops in the open without a save and none of the people I play against does this. Because they aren't stupid.

That aside, in the games I have used them, I have also gone with DL and SC. As Deamon said, the best chance to wound FMC and half decent at shooting troops or elites after you've spoofed all your missiles when you came on. It's not like 2 DL's are every going to do anything to a vehicle or a flyer, so the SC gives it a nice little boost in wounds.
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 00:48

I go DL and SC and I love them. The fact that we can take 9 flyers is something of note honestly. We can CONTROL the air, I am sorry but if you bring a FMC or 3 and then see 3 void ravens supported by 3 Razorwing wing men each it is daunting. My Razorwings very rarely die. Can count on one hand. They are great against infantry though. Those missles. I did 55 wounds to a 16 man Space Wolf force. Left him with 1.
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Dark_Kindred
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 01:17

Dark Lances. Key to attaining air superiority and keeping the heat on vehicles. Chances are if you are heavy assault, you will need those Lances.

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 03:00

So DL and SC upgrades for 150 points are the best. So I need to clean up 20 points in my list. Help me out here.

Succubus- Misery, Glaive
4x Incubi (w/ Klaivex)- Raider w/ DC, NS, Aethersail
5x Trueborn, 4x Blaster- Venom 2x SC
5x Trueborn, 4x Blaster- Venom 2x SC
9x Wyches- Raider w/ DC, NS, Aethersail
9x Wyches- Raider w/ DC, NS, Aethersail
6x Reavers, 2x CC
6x Reavers, 2x CC
Razorwing w/ 2x DL or DC/SC
Razorwing w/ 2x DL or DC/SC
Ravager- 3x DL
Ravager- 3x DL
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 03:13

@JackKnife01 wrote:
I go DL and SC and I love them. The fact that we can take 9 flyers is something of note honestly. We can CONTROL the air, I am sorry but if you bring a FMC or 3 and then see 3 void ravens supported by 3 Razorwing wing men each it is daunting. My Razorwings very rarely die. Can count on one hand. They are great against infantry though. Those missles. I did 55 wounds to a 16 man Space Wolf force. Left him with 1.

How 9?
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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 03:29

Real space raiders with 6 fast attack razorwing and your 3 voidraven for heavy support.

I'd get rid of ns on the wyche raiders, that will give you 30pts. Spend 20 for the sc on the razorwings and you have 10pts left for whatever
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 03:31

@Nariaklizhar wrote:
Real space raiders with 6 fast attack razorwing and your 3 voidraven for heavy support.

I'd get rid of ns on the wyche raiders, that will give you 30pts. Spend 20 for the sc on the razorwings and you have 10pts left for whatever

Why lose the NS?
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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 04:42

I found that against weapons that ignore cover, its a complete waste of points. In fact, I hardly put ns on any of my units. 15pts is expensive! They would be worth it for 5pts, maybe 10. But I have like 8-10 boats in my 1500-1750 pt lists. That 15 pts adds up quick.

Specifically for why your wyche raiders, they are your least significant unit
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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 11:19

@Hellstrom wrote:
I don't like Razorwings.  They suck badly against any army that doesn't put out a load of troops in the open without a save and none of the people I play against does this.  Because they aren't stupid.

That aside, in the games I have used them, I have also gone with DL and SC.  As Deamon said, the best chance to wound FMC and half decent at shooting troops or elites after you've spoofed all your missiles when you came on.  It's not like 2 DL's are every going to do anything to a vehicle or a flyer, so the SC gives it a nice little boost in wounds.

I have to disagree with the claim that they suck against infantry unless they're out in the open and don't have a save. I've happily fired 4 missiles into some of the toughest units like necron immortals/warriors deep in cover and wiped the unit through weight of numbers. Those large blasts accumulate a lot of wounds on a unit and weight of numbers is often how I prefer to deal with targets.
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 11:34

I could just subtract one wych from each squad...

Is the NS actually worth its price?

I think I might go for just the Dark Lance, as i can't find 20 more points to give them Cannons.


Last edited by PainReaver on Fri May 08 2015, 12:36; edited 1 time in total
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 12:04

Amen to that. I shot a Canoptek Wraith unit off the table with my pair of Razorwing. They can force a ton of saves, especially is their target unit is bunched up together to get a cover save.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 12:09

@lessthanjeff wrote:
@Hellstrom wrote:
I don't like Razorwings.  They suck badly against any army that doesn't put out a load of troops in the open without a save and none of the people I play against does this.  Because they aren't stupid.

That aside, in the games I have used them, I have also gone with DL and SC.  As Deamon said, the best chance to wound FMC and half decent at shooting troops or elites after you've spoofed all your missiles when you came on.  It's not like 2 DL's are every going to do anything to a vehicle or a flyer, so the SC gives it a nice little boost in wounds.

I have to disagree with the claim that they suck against infantry unless they're out in the open and don't have a save.  I've happily fired 4 missiles into some of the toughest units like necron immortals/warriors deep in cover and wiped the unit through weight of numbers.  Those large blasts accumulate a lot of wounds on a unit and weight of numbers is often how I prefer to deal with targets.

My own personal experience is the complete opposite of that. I fired all 4 large blasts, on target, into a very tightly packed unit of Necron Warriors causing about 30 hits but only managed to kill 2 of them. Sad

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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 13:31

Quote :
My own personal experience is the complete opposite of that. I fired all 4 large blasts, on target, into a very tightly packed unit of Necron Warriors causing about 30 hits but only managed to kill 2 of them. Sad

That depends if you shot a Decurion Warriors or not. Very Happy Well, from my experience, I never had a game where my Razorwings didn't made their worth in points - either by devastating critical enemy units or taking away shots from other, more important squads in my army. With 2 Dark Lances, 6 Splinter Cannon shots and 4 S6 AP5 Large Blast missiles you get an insanely versatile flyer than can provide both ground control and aerial superiority - the cannon assault daemons and tyranid flyers, dark lances are a threat to even the toughest aircraft of your opponent and bombs are great for killing hordes or thinning out 5 or lower T squads as it wounds them on 3+ or better - that's good even against termies as even one unlucky armor save can really hurt a high-point one-wound models unit.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 14:58

@mightydoughnut wrote:
With 2 Dark Lances, 6 Splinter Cannon shots and 4 S6 AP5 Large Blast missiles you get an insanely versatile flyer than can provide both ground control and aerial superiority

I'll certainly agree they are versatile but the problem is that they're simply not very good at any of the roles that they can do.

2 non twin-linked, BS4 Dark Lances really aren't going to worry most vehicles and will struggle to destroy more than a single vehicle during the entire duration of a game (vs AV11, just over 5 HP in 6 turns on average, not counting cover or invulnerable saves). Best result would probably be forcing an enemy flyer to jink. Compare that to a Crimson Hunter and it's not even funny!

1 non twin-linked Splinter Cannon is also not going to cause too much concern to FMC's, causing roughly 4 wounds over the entire battle and not even forcing them to jink due to AP5.

4 S6 AP5 large blasts CAN be devastating but again, not twin-linked so subject to scatter that could take them off target completely or reduce the number of hits scored. Also, lack of ignores cover hurts against weaker opponents and lack of AP hurts against better armoured ones.

I would gladly sacrifice one of the roles above in order to better at the other two.

Overall, I've never been impressed with the Razorwing in game. In fact, I actually gave my Razorwing model to a friend!

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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 15:05

But actually, that is enough - some say that somebody good at everything is not great at anything but that doesn't apply in strategy games - razorwing is, thanks to it's loadout, a THREAT. You just can't ignore it - you have to take in its flight patterns and range when you position your units to not expose yourself which is already a significant thing at 150 points. Also worth of note, due to it's firepower and our glorious 6 FS slots, you can take three and watch some serious grimmaces on your opponent's face. Smile As you said - 2 Lances, 6 poison shots and 4 bombs are not that impressive. But 6 lances, 18 poison shots and 12 bombs at a threat range of 18-72' is suddenly a big concern.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 15:14

@mightydoughnut wrote:
But actually, that is enough - some say that somebody good at everything is not great at anything but that doesn't apply in strategy games - razorwing is, thanks to it's loadout, a THREAT. You just can't ignore it

Personally, that's exactly what I would do. One Razorwing is simply not a threat to a great deal of the armies out there these days. So I ignore it or, if I have even a single dedicated AA unit, simply destroy it as soon as it appears. A single quad gun will force you to jink or even destroy you outright. And a jinking Razorwing is about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Sure, you could take 3 or even 6 of them but that's 25-50% of your army that may not arrive until turn 4 and could get blown up by interceptor fire before it even does anything.

They simply don't offer enough bang for their buck in my opinion. YMMV.

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 15:37

I'm taking 2 razorwings, most likely as a threat, but can bomb anything, if it needs to be.

But if not the Razorwings on the spot to fill in 300 points?
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 16:20

I always run my Razorwing in pair. One will not be threatening enough but two usually force my opponents flyers/skimmer to Jinx which is almost as good as destroying them.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 19:22

@Dark Eldar are a sinergic army. The Razorwing can "close the circle" of a lot of works the list have begun.
For example, how much time 5 Scourges doesn't have destroy that veichle, rest it with 1 HP? 2 Dark Lances can finish him.
1 Venom makes 4 wound. 1 SpaceMarine killed, 2 if you are lucky. 4 Large Blast simply hit hard some unit, that will be finished by Venoms or other Spliter shots (or assaults).
I never tought a DE unit as a "all rounded" unit, just because they haven't this kind of units. Razorwing are an amazing unit looked in this way imho Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Fri May 08 2015, 19:23

Previlusly message was for Count Adhemar (I am with mobile) ^^
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sat May 09 2015, 00:18

I'm 100% with Count Adhemar on this one. Too expensive, too soft and don't do enough regularly to be worth it.
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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sat May 09 2015, 09:51

Quote :
Too expensive

Show me one flyer that is at the same price or lower (130 initially, 150 effectively with lances and cannon, as the alternative rockets are sub-par and night shields are kinda useless on it) with same loudout, speed and versatility. I'd agree if you were talking about Voidraven but Razorwing?

Quote :
and don't do enough regularly to be worth it.
Now this line is realy baffling to me - care to extrapolate here a bit? Because Razorwing was, is and always will be a support unit - its role is to take away some firepower from the enemy, provide a threat range and fill the gaps in your build and at 150 points it fulfills this role very nicely. Show me another such versatile unit in our codex that is more "worth it" in such a role.

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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing Loadouts   Sat May 09 2015, 15:17

@Hellstrom wrote:
I'm 100% with Count Adhemar on this one. Too expensive, too soft and don't do enough regularly to be worth it.

What are the units you consider worth it in comparison? I usually compare the razorwing to a ravager since that's pretty much what I replaced mine with.

For cost, I pay 140 instead of 125 on the ravager for anti-armor purposes. If you're using it just for killing infantry then it's only 130. Compared to what I pay with other armies for units like predator tanks I consider it a steal.

For toughness, it does have 1 lower front and side armor, but snapshooting at it gives it a survivability advantage in my book and it's immune to assault units. Its speed also adds to its toughness imo since it can quickly clear the range of any threats to it while the ravager loses output once it moves more than 6" in a single turn.

For effectiveness, you get the significant damage output against infantry from the missiles as well as skyfire for fmc and vehicles when you need it while still boasting similar anti-tank capabilities (one less shot on the lances unless the ravager moved at cruising speed). There are few units in the game able to threaten swarms of troops, vehicles, and flyers at the same time.
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