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omkara
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PostSubject: Aberration    6/5/2015, 11:39

Somehow both Battle Scribe and Army Builder seem to neglect the fact that the codex mentions:

"Any model may replace their close combat weapon with a liquifier gun."

Regardless of the fact that:

"One model may be upgraded to an Aberration."

Which should be possible even after you've given it a Liquifier Gun.

"The Aberration may take items from the Weapons of Torture list."

Note how it does not contain the word "only". The fact that it does not mention "Tools Of Torment" is logical, since they have BS1 and it already was mentioned that any model may replace their close combat weapon for a liquifier gun, the only gun that doesn't care for the fact that they have BS1.

Your thoughts?


Last edited by omkara on 6/5/2015, 12:02; edited 2 times in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 11:46

Not sure what it is that you're asking here. Is it whether an Aberration can have a Liquifier Gun? If so, the answer is yes, as that upgrade is available to any model. Unless of course, he's traded his close combat weapon for something from the Weapons of Torture list.

PS - Please do not use bold red font. This is reserved for the moderators.

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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 11:51

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Not sure what it is that you're asking here. Is it whether an Aberration can have a Liquifier Gun? If so, the answer is yes, as that upgrade is available to any model. Unless of course, he's traded his close combat weapon for something from the Weapons of Torture list.

PS - Please do not use bold red font. This is reserved for the moderators.

Sorry, changed the color asap.

What I'm asking, or actually saying is that an Aberration should be able to have both a Liquifier Gun AND an upgrade from the Weapons Of Torture list as there is nothing in the codex that states this isn't possible, which brings me to my confusion why this is not possible when working with either Battle Scribe or Army Builder, which in turn lead me asking here why it wouldn't be possible as it makes no sense for an Aberration to have both a Flesh Gaunlet and (what I would give him) an Agoniser.

In the end, a Flesh Gauntlet is still a "close combat weapon". A Hekatrix can take a Blast Pistol and Agoniser, a Syberite can take a Blast Pistol and Agoniser, a Solarite can take a Blast Pistol and Agoniser, a Haemonculus can take a Liquifier Gun and Agoniser... surely an Aberration should also be possible to take both Liquifier Gun and Agoniser.


Last edited by omkara on 6/5/2015, 12:03; edited 1 time in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 12:02

All the upgrades from Weapons of Torture require you to trade in your close combat weapon. You cannot do this if you've already traded it for a Liquifier Gun.

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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 12:04

The Flesh Gauntlet is a close combat weapon as well as a weapon of torment which is my "defence" in this case, as well as the other examples of unit champions being able to wield both upgraded ranged and melee weapon.

Even an Acothyst may have both Liquifier Gun and Agoniser....

Unless I've been using the Flesh Gauntlet completely wrong this time and it is actually a ranged weapon with 0" range Razz
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 12:27

A Flesh Gauntlet is a Melee weapon, but not a close combat weapon. A close combat weapon is a specific name for a range of unspecified items that can be used in melee.

Quote :
MELEE WEAPONS
Profiles for the following weapons are listed in the Profiles section. Their full rules can be found in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules:
Close combat weapon...

To claim that the Flesh Gauntlet is a close combat weapon is clearly not going to work as they are both listed separately on the Grotesque datasheet and I suspect you know this or you wouldn't have come here looking for justification for what you're trying to do.

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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 12:47

At first I was confused as to why the Aberration would not be allowed to take both Liquifier Gun and Agoniser at the same time. After you cleared it up, the only thing that is left is defiance for the fact that every other champion model can take a ranged and melee upgrade but the Aberration cannot, which is clearly nothing more than a fault that lies in the wording.

Actually if you want to be technical about it, the Flesh Gauntlet is NOT a melee weapon, as that which is described as a Melee Weapon are both the Agoniser and Power Weapon in the upgrade list, but then when go to the melee weapon section at the end of the codex, suddenly the Weapons Of Torment are also Melee Weapons. Surely you can see how ridiculous this concept is right?

The fact that both the Haemonculus and Acothyst can both take a Liquifier Gun and Agoniser, justifies for me that the Aberration should be able to do so as well and if people will deny me a tournament of upholding this ridiculous rule that an Aberration cannot wield both Liquifier Gun and Agoniser I will gladly leave.
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 12:48

Another way to look at it, is if they have a NAMED weapon, i.e. Flesh Gauntlet, then you cannot trade it in. Close Combat Weapon is a general term for any weapon, as Count stated.
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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 12:49

@JackKnife01 wrote:
Another way to look at it, is if they have a NAMED weapon, i.e. Flesh Gauntlet, then you cannot trade it in. Close Combat Weapon is a general term for any weapon, as Count stated.

Yeah but another more logical way of looking it at is why the hell would I want a model with a Flesh Gauntlet AND an Agoniser.
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 12:50

Agoniser is AP3, were as Flesh Gauntlet has no AP but can cause Instant Death. Not to mention both allow you to reroll to wound, because you wound easier with your strength generally.
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 12:51

@omkara wrote:
Actually if you want to be technical about it, the Flesh Gauntlet is NOT a melee weapon

It really is. It's listed in the melee weapon section of the armoury and has the melee type in the profile. It's a melee weapon!

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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 12:52

@JackKnife01 wrote:
Agoniser is AP3, were as Flesh Gauntlet has no AP but can cause Instant Death. Not to mention both allow you to reroll to wound, because you wound easier with your strength generally.

I know, but it still makes no sense that I cannot choose to trade in the given Weapon Of Torment for another Weapon Of Torment of my own choosing. Hardly very flexible. Furthermore, GW isn't known for it's logical rules, so I'm not going to uphold this ridiculous one.

Again, a Haemonculus and Acothyst can wield both the Liquifier Gun and Agoniser; there's no logical reason why an Aberration wouldn't be able to do the same other than to uphold a illogical rule which has clearly been born out of wrong use of words.


Last edited by omkara on 6/5/2015, 12:56; edited 3 times in total
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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 12:54

@JackKnife01 wrote:
Agoniser is AP3, were as Flesh Gauntlet has no AP but can cause Instant Death. Not to mention both allow you to reroll to wound, because you wound easier with your strength generally.

Which is already what I mentioned in my post, adding even more ridiculousness to the entire codex. Why first clarify that a Flesh Gauntlet is a Weapon Of Torment and then later on classify it as a Melee Weapon, where as when "buying" just a Melee Weapon, only the Agoniser and Power Weapon are classified as such.

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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 12:57

Haemis and Acy have 2 close combat weapons. Thus can trade 2 in. Where as Grots start with 1 close combat weapon and a flesh gauntlet. A named weapon of torment. They can then trade the unnamed weapon in for another weapon to give you another boost in something you may lack. Such as, but not limited to, a flamer template, a rending weapon, a weapon that has a sit AP value of 3.
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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 13:07

@JackKnife01 wrote:
Haemis and Acy have 2 close combat weapons. Thus can trade 2 in. Where as Grots start with 1 close combat weapon and a flesh gauntlet. A named weapon of torment. They can then trade the unnamed weapon in for another weapon to give you another boost in something you may lack. Such as, but not limited to, a flamer template, a rending weapon, a weapon that has a sit AP value of 3.

Yeah I just don't agree as it makes little sense I cannot choose to trade in the Flesh Gauntlet for an Agoniser. I don't even want the 10 points back; simply to wield both the Agoniser and Liquifier Gun.

Now I simply won't field an Aberration because their rules are retarded. I'm guessing these rules are such because they were too lazy to sculpt more than 1 model for the Grotesques.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 13:18

@omkara wrote:
I'm guessing these rules are such because they were too lazy to sculpt more than 1 model for the Grotesques.

Sadly I think you're right. This is why all my Grots are conversions.

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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 13:20

I was thinking of running Grots, but I just cannot bring myself to do it.
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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration    6/5/2015, 13:33

The thing is, I want to run a Haemonculus Coven only army, the reason being is that when I perform, as a musician, I managed to look just like Haemonculus/Wrack (didn't even knew I did, because I came up with this look based on other things) and even using Dark Eldar vocals from Dawn Of War 1 Razz



Anyway, Grotesque's are just the meat of such an army; especially combined with the Grotesquerie formation. I'm going to portal a group of 4 and 1 Haemonculus next to my armies, Liquifier Gunning them to death, which seems like nasty thing to do.

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