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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Venom Spam   Mon May 04 2015, 23:07

Hello all,

So I am asking the simple question, is Venom Spam the only way to really play on a tournament level with only pure Dark Eldar?

Personally, I love Raider Spam, and there is something to be said about the fact that you can twin link the poison shots that a raider puts out. That, and the fact that they bring a 36 range Dark Lance/Diss Cannon.

So allow me to explain my position. I have this really bad habit of tallying numbers for each list I make. This is to know how many poison and dark light shots I can put down range. So allow me to explain, below is a comparison of shots of three lists, Raider Spam, Venom Spam, and Duel Ravager.

Raider Spam:

Archon- Agoniser, Blaster, The Armor of Misery, Shadowfield
Kabalite Trueborn(5)-4 Blasters
--Raider-Dark Lance, Night Shields
Kabalite Trueborn(5)-4 Blasters
--Raider-Dark Lance, Night Shields
Kabalite Warriors(10)-Blaster/Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance, Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Kabalite Warriors(10)-Blaster/Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance, Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Kabalite Warriors(10)-Blaster/Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance, Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Kabalite Warriors(10)-Blaster/Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance, Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Kabalite Warriors(10)-Blaster/Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance, Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Ravager-Dark Lance(3), Night Shields
VoidRaven- Void Lance(2), Night Shields

Dark Light Shots: 24
Poison With Movement: 62
Poison Without Movement: 72
Diss Shots: 0
Void Lance: 2
Heat Lance: 0
Haywire: 0

Venom Spam:
Archon-Agonister, Blaster, The Armor of Misery, Shadowfield, Webway Portal, Haywire Grenades
Kabalite Trueborn(5)-Blaster(4)
--Raider- Dark Lance, Night Shields
Kabalite Trueborn(5)-Blaster(4)
--Venom-Splinter Cannon
Kabalite Trueborn(5)-Blaster(4)
--Venom-Splinter Cannon
Kabalite Warriors(5)-Blaster
--Venom-Splinter Cannon
Kabalite Warriors(5)-Blaster
--Venom-Splinter Cannon
Kabalite Warriors(5)-Blaster
--Venom-Splinter Cannon
Razorwing Jetfighter-Dark Lance(2), Night Shields, Splinter Cannon
Scourges(5)-Heat Lance(4)
Ravager-Dark Lance(3), Night Shields
Ravager-Dark Lance(3), Night Shields
Voidraven Bomber-Void Lance(2), Night Shields

Dark Light Shots: 27
Poison With Movement: 84
Poison Without Movement: 84
Diss Shots: 0
Void Lance: 2
Heat Lance: 4
Haywire: 1

Dual Ravager:
Archon-Agoniser, Blaster, The Armor of Misery, Shadowfield, Webway Portal, Haywire Grenades
Kabalite Trueborn(5)-Blaster(4)
--Raider-Dark Lance, Night Shields
Kabalite Trueborn(5)-Blaster(4)
--Venom-Splinter Cannon
Kabalite Warriors(10)-Blaster, Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance, Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Kabalite Warriors(10)-Blaster, Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance, Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Kabalite Warriors(10)-Blaster, Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance, Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Razorwing Jetfighter-Dark Lance(2), Night Shields, Splinter Cannon
Scourges(5)-Heat Lance(4)
Scourges(5)-Haywire Blasters(4)
Ravager-Dark Lance(3), Night Shields
Ravager-Dark Lance(3), Night Shields

Dark Light Shots: 25
Poison With Movement: 62
Poison Without Movement: 68
Diss Shots: 0
Void Lance: 0
Heat Lance: 4
Haywire: 5

Note that the Venom Spam is the best it looks like. This sucks simply because I love Raider Spam. I just do, I cannot  help it, and something about 8+ Long Boats hitting your opponent with twin linked good ness is just lovely. Still the constant rain of 84 shots a turn is just outrageous and the most I can put down, even if they are not twin linked.

Thoughts?

EDIT:
May 7 2015-New List added, thank you all for giving this me help. It is a Raider Spam list and I do love my long boats.

Raider Spam 3.0:
HQ:
Archon- Blaster, Webway Portal, Haywire Grenades, Clonefield

Elites:
Kabalite Trueborn(5)-4 Blasters/Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance/ Night Shields/ Enhanced Aethersails
Kabalite Trueborn(5)-4 Blasters/Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance/ Night Shields/ Enhanced Aethersails

Troops:
Kabalite Warriors(10)-Blaster/Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance/ Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Kabalite Warriors(10)-Blaster/Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance/ Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Kabalite Warriors(10)-Blaster/Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance/ Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Kabalite Warriors(10)-Blaster/Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance/ Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Kabalite Warriors(10)-Blaster/Splinter Cannon
--Raider-Dark Lance/ Night Shields, Splinter Racks

Fast Attack:
Razorwing-Splinter Cannon/2 Dark Lance

Heavy Support:
Ravager-Dark Lance(3)/ Night Shields/ Enhanced Aethersails

~1850/1850~

Dark Light Shots: 26
Poison With Movement: 74
Poison Without Movement: 88
Diss Shots: 0
Void Lance: 0
Heat Lance: 0
Haywire: 1
Total Models: 70 Models-(61 Individuals and 9 Vehicles)


Last edited by JackKnife01 on Thu May 07 2015, 10:19; edited 3 times in total
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Mon May 04 2015, 23:45

I think it might help if we could see more than just the number of shots, but a breakdown of the lists you're comparing. Personally, I prefer gunboat raiders to venoms, but that's just me. I'd love to try to put some heads together on your lists, though.
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Tue May 05 2015, 03:23

Lists have been added as requested. If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, please do not hesitate to let them be known. If you have any questions about my math in terms of results of shots please do tell. Please note this does not account for rapid fire rage, it accounts for range in general terms. Does not account nor attest to the amount of shots at different ranges.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Tue May 05 2015, 05:04

But Raider have a essential advantage: even despite jinks they can still shoot effectively. And if you buy a Blaster and Grenades for your Warriors, you are much more versatile compared to the Venom squads.

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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Tue May 05 2015, 05:28

This is true, I have thought about that as well. While true enough, Venoms come with a built in Invul save, which I have seen first hand save it from an Imperial Knight's attacks, all three. The Raider, carries more, and has been rounds of shooting. I have seen with my venom maybe out of 12 shot 8 hit and 4 wound. Like wise out of my raider I have seen 10 hit and 8 wound. Then again my Raiders have a lot more into them. I run them with the Night Shields and this keeps them around for a very long time, if not right down to the end of the game. That is why I like Raider Spam. The fact is with that list it brings to bear 7 Dark Lances at 36 inch range prior without a Ravager throwing it's lot into it. Just in terms of volley of fire the venom is bringing way more, and more and more people use them like that.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Tue May 05 2015, 06:28

I prefer the Raider list. Way more hull points, a better Jink, and more troops to be chewed through, meaning better scoring potential.

Out of curiosity, if you have no Ld based attacks, why take the armor of misery?
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Tue May 05 2015, 06:31

Better armor without having to use the Shadowfield's Invul, instead of risking it basically. That, and if the Shadowfield does fail, I can fall back on a slight chance of a 6++ instead of nothing.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Tue May 05 2015, 21:17

Quote :
So I am asking the simple question, is Venom Spam the only way to really play on a tournament level with only pure Dark Eldar?

It doesnt really work, dont have answers to Knights and Mech. Im leaning more towards Dark Light spam.

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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Tue May 05 2015, 23:37

27 Dark Lances can't kill a knight??? I mean true enough most are 18 inch dark lights but still 27 can more or less kill a knight.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Wed May 06 2015, 04:52

Buy additional Haywire Grenades for the squad leaders and you don't need to be afraid of a knight anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Wed May 06 2015, 05:56

I straight don't use squad leaders. I do not see the point. Honestly. With Kabalites the only thing I want to be in hand to hand with....is Tau and Guard. No one else. Extra leadership? doesn't bother me. I leave shooting for shooting and charging for charging. The Archon has an agonizer just incase he gets charged or he finds himself in a position to sweep marines.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Wed May 06 2015, 12:11

JackKnife01 wrote:
I straight don't use squad leaders. I do not see the point. Honestly. With Kabalites the only thing I want to be in hand to hand with....is Tau and Guard. No one else. Extra leadership? doesn't bother me. I leave shooting for shooting and charging for charging. The Archon has an agonizer just incase he gets charged or he finds himself in a position to sweep marines.

The haywire grande my friend... throw a grenade and strip 1 HP from a vehicle. Then charge it and strip another one. I finished an annoying Waveserpent that way last game. It synergize well with the blaster. I was like you before and then I tried this and my kabalites never leave one without their Sybarite now.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Wed May 06 2015, 12:12

15 points for an 8 inch hull point. I see it, I really do, but it seems sooo.....lack luster.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Wed May 06 2015, 12:21

15 pts for 2 HP since you can charge it after throwing the grenade. It can be a game changer when you need to crack that Land Raider open. Not to mention that walkers will hesitate to charge you to knock you off an objective. Really, it depends of you list, I run 4 of these squads... what would I do with the saved points? Can't add another unit so it comes to upgrades... the only one I could use is night shield on my ravagers... 4 HP in shooting phase and 4 in assault phase or +1 save? That's an easy choice for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Wed May 06 2015, 12:26

4 up jink saves though are just not reliable. Albeit, 3 ups are just as unpredictable, ever since I started running them I have had my raider last a lot longer so. I will test it out, but still if I want haywires, I got scourges, who not only do it better, have longer range to survive.

EDIT: This forum just helped me to create a list using Raider Spam that actually provides close to the number of shots to a Venom Spam List, and actually surpasses the one I created if I do not move, key thing there, do not move. I have added that List as well. Thank you all for this!
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Thu May 21 2015, 23:06

You're missing the very crucial addition of rapid fire range in your calculations. The thing about raider spam versus venom spam is that the raiders put FAR more shots down but are much more vulnerable. Venoms survive by their range and their worthlessness (65 points? Chump change), gunboat raiders make delicious targets as they will more often than not outcost a Leman Russ. But then again they throw down a similar amount of fire as that Leman Russ as well. It's all about risk vs reward and what level of risk you're comfortable playing with
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Thu May 21 2015, 23:07

Not only that, raiders can twin link which venoms cannot.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Fri May 22 2015, 07:32

Lately I've been having a mix of 1-2 Gun boats and 3-6 Venoms. Venoms are better in the beginning of game due their range. With the absence of old Wave Serpent Raiders have increased in useability.

Still. I prefer Venoms.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Fri May 22 2015, 11:26

I have very effectively used two gun boats and two Venom against imperial guard.

Gun boats with night shields and lances and ten dudes with Blaster and Haywire Grenades and Phantasm launcher against imperial guard. Oh. And racks.

Venom troops with the same.

Oh. And every one with chains so I shocked a huge conscripts squad off the board.

The Haywire grenade is really good because I want to get close to get into double tap range. There are only two things that bother me: flame weaponry and Standard weaponry with strength 4 or up. Against those, I would perhaps use Venom.

Let's do the math
A Venom puts out 12 shots aka 8 hits and 4 wounds.

A ten dudes squad in a Raider with ranks puts 18 shots (one has a Blaster) with 12 hits + 4 hits through research roll. Those equal 8 wounds which is two times the amount for 1,5 times the price. One could argue about the range but we are fast enough to get where we want and whenever we want. The only thing that bothers me are flame weapons. So basically kill everything next to your boats to keep them save from that.

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Fri May 22 2015, 11:51

Yes DE are fast to get anywhere they want, but it also puts those models in danger of counter attack. That's why Venoms are better most of the times.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Fri May 22 2015, 12:09

What Vasara said. For a gunboat to be effective, it needs to be within 12". Unless you are fighting an opponent who's dumb enough to spread his units accross the map against DE, you will be in range to get charged and there's no jinx against assault. Your raider is gonna be wrecked (if your lucky) or is going to blow off (killing many warriors in the process).

Gunboats, in my experience, are superior to Venoms only when you play a very agressive in your face list. If you also put Grotesque, Deepstriking Dark Artisan, Incubis, Reavers, Beastmaster in your opponents face THEN and only then have your gunboats a decent chance to survive.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Fri May 22 2015, 12:53

Depends on the enemy. With many Strength 4 close combat attacks and basic guns, I'd prefer Venom squads too.

So basically: facing space Marines or Tau? Take Venom squads. The rest? Raiders.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Fri May 22 2015, 12:59

Marines, Tau, Necrons, IG, Deamons, CSM And Eldar.

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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Fri May 22 2015, 15:55

Against guard I prefer Raider. Immune to their standard guns

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The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
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PostSubject: Re: Venom Spam   Fri May 22 2015, 16:00

CptMetal wrote:
Against guard I prefer Raider. Immune to their standard guns

Raiders and Venoms are both AV10. Only things in our whole bloody codex with >10 are Ravagers!

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