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CptMetal
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PostSubject: against imperial guards    Sat May 02 2015, 23:22

Good evening fellow archon.
We will be starting a small campaign soon and the opening match will be my dark Eldar against imperial guard at 1500.
Any help because I'm normally struggling against them. What kind of formations are in the coven codex and are they useful and what do they do?
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Sat May 02 2015, 23:55

What kind of list are you going to face? Mass infantry? Parking lot?

Against parking lot, a Grotesquerie will do wonder. Deepstriking venoms with a blaster and a sybarite with HWG would works well too.

Against mass infantry I would go with a pair of Razorwing Jetfighter and a lot of venoms.

In both case a Dark Artisan formation with WWP would throw a wrench in their plan.

Now...if you're willing to add an eldar detachment... WWP Wraithguard with D-Scythe would wreck a parking lot.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Sun May 03 2015, 06:00

What is the dark artisan and what's a grotesquely formation? I don't own the supplement and I'm not sure if I should buy it. I own six grotesques and two talos.
What's the difference to fielding them with the codex.
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Sun May 03 2015, 08:13

A Grotesquerie is two units of Grotesques and a Haemonculus (or Urien). The Grotesques get a version of combat drugs, and use the Covenite Power From Pain table.

A Dark Artisan is a Talos, a Cronos, and a Haemonculus, who must be fielded together as a unit. The Talos and Cronos get a +1 bonus to WS and I.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Sun May 03 2015, 09:35

@Deamon I don't know what kind of list I am going to face. Last time he used mass of Infantry and some Leman Russ tanks. And of course heavy weapon squads.

I am thinking about running two Grotesque squads with three each and Haemonculus with a portal. One squad with one the other with two Liquifier. And an Archon with a Blaster and Portal with Armour of Misery. Both in Raider with night shields.
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BlackCadian
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Sun May 03 2015, 15:17

Grots and Blaster Archon sounds good. Do you have Blasterborn to take along with the Archon? Also, like Deamon said, if you've got a Razorwing, those are great against large squads of recruits or normal soldiers. In my last 1000pt game against AM I brought along 2 of those, they didn't disappoint!

If he brings a Wyvern, make sure you blow that one up fast as it ignores cover. Heavy Weapon teams normally don't scare me much, I assault them with jetbikes quick.

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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Sun May 03 2015, 22:30

Razorwings and MSU venomspam is what in the end turned the tide for me. My opponent usually runs Punisher Pask with Punisher buddies, and large blobs peppered with heavy weapons teams and psykers, and inquisition psykers and Wyverns as back up.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Mon May 04 2015, 05:08

He will probably do the trick of getting a 2+ cover save behind an defense line by going to ground and and using orders to act normal next turn. I only own six bikes and I'm not sure if those won't be destroyed in close combat because he strikes first because of cover.
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Dark_Kindred
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Mon May 04 2015, 08:36

@CptMetal wrote:
He will probably do the trick of getting a 2+ cover save behind an defense line by going to ground and and using orders to act normal next turn. I only own six bikes and I'm not sure if those won't be destroyed in close combat because he strikes first because of cover.
I haven't played a lot of 7th edition so call me out if this is wrong.

If you can force them to Go to Ground and then charge them in the same turn, then they will not be able to Overwatch and you strike at Initiative IIRC.

Supposing that is not the case, Hammer of Wrath attacks go at I10 anyway so you should be able to kill a few guys and make it harder for him to get at you because he must consolidate into base to base to even engage you. The key, I think, is to apply pressure on one side of the blob. I had a unit of Wyches with a Succubus grind through a fifty man Guard blob using those consolidate rules in the beginning of 6th Edition.

Besides, unless he brought Vox Casters, he’ll have a harder time getting off orders because those are Leadership based tests and you will have (1) Freakish Spectacle and (2) Armor of Misery which should zap those abilities.

Personally, I would be more afraid of him putting Chimeras behind his Aegis Defense Line.,-it’s a hard nut to crack. That would probably require a Dark Artisan formation plus Deep Striking Grotesques. Don’t expect much in the way of external support (I mean, really? AV 12 with 4+?).

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Mon May 04 2015, 12:22

Most of the time guard want to sit in a strong defensive position and shoot the living crap out of you and they have the tools to do it so don't let them.

Get as much LOSB terrain on the table as possible. Yes he will probably have units that don't need LOS like wyverns but would you rather be shot by wyverns or dozens of heavy weapons + wyverns?

Spread Objs out (unless you are playing huge grot bombs Repugnant Ramblers style), so he has to move and kill his fast units.

Reserving most of your army + a little manipulation from an autarch or coms gives you the alpha strike.

Don't fight his whole army. Pick a flank, his weakest and focus your attack there. Use LOSB terrain to shield you from the rest of his force.

Orders are good so kill the command units when you get the chance.

WWPing in a tough unit or 2 like grots or a dark artisan will draw his attention and buy you some time. These units are not indestructible tho so place them carefully so that they work with the rest of your armies plan.

As always you do not need to destroy his army to win, objectives, objectives, objectives!!!

Good luck and let us know how you go.

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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Mon May 04 2015, 12:45

This assumes LOSB terrain is in abundance. Few clubs, in my experience, have more than one or two pieces at most capable of shielding a raider/venom from sight.

Still though, it's good advice. Come in from reserve and try to chew him up from the side.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Mon May 04 2015, 12:52

We had a talk and agreed on the eternal war mission where each player places one objective. I will be placing mine in the open to defend it easily. Any suggestions?

We are playing at his home and all of us have enough terrain.

But I am not sure how to just attack one side of his army. His weapons will have enough range...
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Mon May 04 2015, 20:22

Against another opponent, an open objective would be nice, but against the guards, I'm affraid about the 2 millions large-blast hits, without LOSB to prevent some. I would place my objective near/behind a big cover.
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Mon May 04 2015, 21:43

But if it's in conver he can grab it and I won't be able to get him off my objective once he reaches it.

I will be deep striking both grotesques units consisting of three with portals in the Archon and Haemonculus. Both units as a Haemonculus formation.
An additional Blaster born squad in Raider with shield.

After that five Warriors in a Venom with chains and Haywire Grenades and a Blaster and 2x ten Warriors with the same equipment in a Raider with shields and lances and racks. And finally a jet. What do you guys think?
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Tue May 05 2015, 03:31

My I add a different voice? Instead of deep striking, why not flat out. This doesn't leave you sitting around, nor waiting. I had to face a list with this, and I too opt'd for deep striking. That one turn of not being able to move, and the scatter ruined it. We have speed like no other. Charge flat out one full turn. Expect to loose ships. However, you now have your payload either extremely close to his lines, or in his lines. He now has to choose how he wants to reposition his army. This leads to fire being concentrated in one area and not in others. With 5 boats full or nasty things all nice and neatly locked in their cages, he won't know which one to really focus on. If he does, the others eat him. That is just my take on it. I wish I had just used my speed to get into the lines. Warriors on their one against guard and do damage to a blob. Even more so if they get into the lines. Grots will wreck blobs. Liquifier guns will wreck and then rerolls to wound. Not to mention rampage and don't forget their overwatch hurts you on 6s. Blobs are great, real tough, except will you punch them with a grot force.
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Tue May 05 2015, 05:07

But that's only working I'd I get the Diaz turn or is there is enough line of sight blocking terrain to hide my ships. Otherwise it's just Moorhuhnjagd for him.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Tue May 05 2015, 15:10

@CptMetal wrote:
But if it's in conver he can grab it and I won't be able to get him off my objective once he reaches it.

Guardmens are not something too scary to assault with grotesques, even if you strike after them. At the end of the game, the blob should not be that big. You just need to be careful about the Kas'rkin that can be troublesome.

And, I said NEAR a cover. Not IN it.
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Tue May 05 2015, 23:34

Beware of Hydra. Their mortars will ignore cover, but even then they need 6's. Only problem then is, can they put enough of them on it. with 4 shots a battery is it very possible.
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Thu May 07 2015, 14:24

I'm thinking about adding soulfright weapons by getting rid of two portals for the grotesques. Does anybody know the leadership of guard against that? And can they use the leadership of the commander for that cases? And does the commander 'radiates' his leadership?

Sorry for all those questions, but I don't want to ask my guard friend, because I don't want to give him and clues.
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Thu May 07 2015, 15:31

Yarrick can gives fearless to his extended unit (the guards can combine several trooper units under a single big unit). So, you have a big fearless blob. Only the infiltrated Kas'rkin, or troops in chimera won't be part of the blob, and, thus, won't have fearless . And with cheap equipment, they can share the high leadership of their commanders to all troopers. I don't think soulfright will work fine, unless you adopt a freakshow-style army.

My main ennemy is a guard and I used to consider his army with infinite leadership, for every purpose.
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Thu May 07 2015, 15:42

Ah. Okay. I was thinking about the archangel of Pain and the armor of Misery and the double grotesques formation a good way to get rid of them. Gives them -3 leadership and -5 for the archangel. And I could use it to tank shock heavy weapon squads off the board. At least I have hoped so...
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Fri Jun 05 2015, 03:54

Being a guard player, if he doesn't have a commissar near his blob they will break most of the time. Guard have warlord trait to allow guardsmen to use higher leadership, or too even completely ignore 25% loss morale checks. Summary execution will guarantee his men won't run when failing checks
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PostSubject: Re: against imperial guards    Fri Jun 05 2015, 05:58

Everything is fine. I shredded him and won 8:1 victory points. The WWP bomb with archangel and Armour of Misery on Archon and Haemonculus absolutely crippled his command structure. The unit of grotesques they were accompanied with helped too.
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