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 Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 22:02

In the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there is always plenty of light to see by.

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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 22:58

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
In the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there is  always plenty of light to see by.

sunny
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 03:24

If the AP engine's effects were ignored by Night Vision I'd pay a lot more for it. (As it is, it's meant to give the covens units time to close to CC.)
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Wed Apr 29 2015, 04:39

Isn't the save from Realspace Raiders meant to represent attacking under cover of darkness? It confers a similar mechanical advantage.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Wed Apr 29 2015, 08:47

@Jimsolo wrote:
Isn't the save from Realspace Raiders meant to represent attacking under cover of darkness?  It confers a similar mechanical advantage.

Albeit still only one turn?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Wed Apr 29 2015, 09:21

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
Isn't the save from Realspace Raiders meant to represent attacking under cover of darkness?  It confers a similar mechanical advantage.

Albeit still only one turn?

We attack in the dead of night, to maximise the terror. ONWARDS!!!

Seriously, did nobody check what time the bloody sun comes up? Again!?!?!!

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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Wed Apr 29 2015, 09:48

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
Isn't the save from Realspace Raiders meant to represent attacking under cover of darkness?  It confers a similar mechanical advantage.

Albeit still only one turn?

We attack in the dead of night, to maximise the terror. ONWARDS!!!

Seriously, did nobody check what time the bloody sun comes up? Again!?!?!!

Laughing

Maybe it's because Commorragh being in permanent night we like to see a sunrise or sunset every now and again?

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Wed Apr 29 2015, 12:45

Lol, I always figured turn 2 onwards the enemy was throwing in floodlights or that the various illumination of the battle was negating the advantage.

Plus, revealing yourself after the initial damage seems pretty Dark Eldary to me. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 15:36

Honestly I think night fighting should be allowed to go on further. Such as 4+ first turn, 5+ second turn, 6+ subsequent turns. Makes more sense, other wise night fighting is pointless.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 17:09

If that was the case across the board, it would grossly unfair to Tau and Dark Eldar.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 17:11

The thing is it is fair, and you could say after turn 3 no more night fight.
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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 17:33

Lots of armies benefit from night fighting. Especially jinking vehicles, so there's no real reason why Night Fighting shouldn't be throughout the entirety of the game or at the very least the first 3 turns.

A DE player should have a +1 or something on the Night Fighting table as well, and or a "Night Terror" rule I think would fit the Realspace Raider formation perfectly.

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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 17:41

Well I cannot speak for rules for the army, it would be bias towards benifiting us and well overall myself. I would like to see night fight go for longer turns as it makes more sense and adds another element to it. Also don't forget that using real space our troop carrying raiders get a 4+ cover save with out jinking.
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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 17:47

Yet only for as long as Night Fighting is in play. Considering I prefer the null-deployment, its virtually useless to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 17:50

True but for raider spam it is flipping brilliant. I was thinking about running a list with 7-9 gun boats and a 4 up cover is nothing to joke about against 22-26 dark light weapons and 72+ poison shots and 11 of those dark light is 36 inches
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 18:28

@JackKnife01 wrote:
The thing is it is fair, and you could say after turn 3 no more night fight.

It's not even close to fair. Melee armies might enjoy it, and armies that can get Night Vision on everyting might, but distance dependent armies without it (like Imperial Guard, f'rex) are completely shafted. Not only do Tau and DE get unrestricted shooting, but their assault units also get a protected advance. And in our case, that amounts to a lot of Guard getting slitzed up in turn 2.

Also, Omkara, if you're Null Deploying (and happen to go first) then Night Fighting will still benefit your Scalpel, which is better than nothing. (Plus, sometimes you want to have an allied unit or two out anyway...)
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 19:00

Except guard has ignore's cover so night fighting wouldn't matter to them. Orders+Mortars=good luck hugging cover and with 4 twin link blasts per mortar model good luck. Not to.mention they take agis more than anyone and can give it ignores cover due to orders....oh and skyfire shoots full bs against skimmers guard wouldn't care. In fact if they take agis then thanks for the 3+ cover save at least.

Tau=Marker lights and 3+ Jink
Eldar=3+ Jink and psychic powers
Greyknights= Flamer Templates and torrent ones at that.
Marines= Flamers, redemeers, psychics, weapons that ignore cover
Nids, body of guants says hi and bad match up anyway
Chaos= Noise Marines don't give a crap, Nurgke would love to get a cover to things that might kill them, Khorne thanks you, Tzeech plots to use it and but would like the cover shave and use psyhic to ignore cover saves.
Daemons= Throws Buckets of dice to ignore cover due to psyhcic
Orks=Charging you, doesn't care really.
Sisters of Battle=LMAO the army of flamers laughs at your cover save. Seriously.
Wolves, Blood Angels, and whatever else

What is your argument about the+1 to cover saves? That it is unfair? Dark eldar have 2 template weapons that need elites or courts to take. Everyone else can give to Troops if you are talking about marines, sob, and heck even works have a unit of flamers. It forces them to use other models.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 19:58

Except that with a few exceptions for Deep Strike armies, all your lists of flamers are largely inconsequential, since they aren't in range turn 1 anyway.

I understand that Night Fighting arguably benefits most armies (except for any army that's playing against Dark Eldar) but there's just no conceivable way to argue that Night Fighting doesn't benefit Dark Eldar more than all of our other opponents.

Now, all that being said, we should definitely have an option to either bring it back or extend it. (They gave that to one character, and it was a Necron? WTF?) Right now, all you can do for an extra turn of Night Fighting is take a Corsair Prince. Even if it was a huge cost, I might still conceivably pay it. ((If it was an individual upgrade granting stealth, costing 10 pts/unit, I'd take it on everything. So it seems reasonable that I'd buy an upgrade/unit which gave my whole army stealth for 100-150 pts, depending.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 20:02

Guard doesn't deep strike. Flamers matter a lot. Since they kill all our guys. I also stated that most have ignore cover weapons. Not just deep striking and Flamers.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 20:16

(Storm Troopers absolutely Deep Strike.)  

Turn one templates are just fireworks in the distance.   Other than that, they have Deathstrike Missiles, Eradicator Nova Cannons, Hellfury Missiles, and Stormshard Mortars.  We'll go ahead and include the Inferno Cannon since it has Torrent.  (Oh, and one infantry unit per Company Commander can have it, presuming you can get the order off.)

Of these, the Hellfury and Inferno Cannon are the only two you're likely to see with any frequency.  

Meanwhile, every unit in our entire Codex ignores the benefits from Night Fighting.

If every army is so capable of completely ignoring cover, then why would you want to a boost to it? The truth is that Ignores Cover is comparatively uncommon in most games, and is a huge benefit to us.

And none of that is the main point. The main point is that Dark Eldar and (especially!) Tau gain far more from having Night Fighting every turn than any other army would.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 20:34

True we gain from it, but considering the overwhelming lack of love it would make us a bit more survivable and tau are benefiting but as I do not have the Dex I cannot say how well.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 20:46

Well maybe we should pay points for night fighting then as it is such a big part of the Dark Eldar tactic.

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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 20:47

I could TOTALLY get behind that. A SC with Imotekh's extendable Night Fighting? Yes, please.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 20:55

@omkara wrote:
Well maybe we should pay points for night fighting then as it is such a big part of the Dark Eldar tactic.

Nightfight has nearly no effect at all.
Every imperial vehicle got searchlights... the drawback is that the vehicle can does not benefit from nightfight anymore... which it would not do anyways as we have nightsight.

Also Nightfight gies stealth... which is what nightfields already have... while imperial vehicles just throw some fancy camo nets over their vehicles to claim +1 cover (and not stealth).

Nightfight is overrated. It was pretty good in 6th where it limited weapon range, but now it is pretty much useless.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Thu Apr 30 2015, 21:12

Reavers with Stealth = +2 Save when jinking.

Not overrated at all imho.

And we don't only fight vs imperials.

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