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 Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?

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omkara
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PostSubject: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 09:53

Greetings,

If I have read this correct, I am completely amazed by the concept that it apparently would only be Night Fighting during 1 Turn of an entire battle unless you would have wargear, like per example the Corsair Prince, that dictates otherwise.

Wouldn't it, at least fluffwise, for the Dark Eldar, be more logical for them to choose their battles in terms of on what time they decide to go hunting for more souls? Especially with an army so reliant upon the cover of darkness (Realspace Raiders Detachment) and Stealth, I would always choose to fight during the night.

So how exactly is it that even if you do roll positive for a Night Fight, it is only 1 Turn? Wouldn't it be more logical that if you do roll for Night Fighting, it would be the entire game? Are there that many instances in the books where Dark Eldar are actually caught off guard and are forced to battle enemies during the day?

Thanks for replying in advance!
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 11:02

Moving this to discussion as it's not really rules-related - Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 11:51

I agree, kind of, I don't quite understand why the Real space Raiders detachment states "any turn night fight is in effect" yet the Dark Elder have no means to dictate Night Fighting outside of a standard turn 1 roll.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 12:00

This is something many people have commented on before. I have no idea why we don't have a formation or detachment with the following rule:

Quote :
Night Terror: In any game in which the Night Fighting rule is in effect on turn one, the Dark Eldar player may elect to have the Night Fighting rules apply for the entire game.

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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 12:07

@Count Adhemar wrote:
This is something many people have commented on before. I have no idea why we don't have a formation or detachment with the following rule:

Quote :
Night Terror: In any game in which the Night Fighting rule is in effect on turn one, the Dark Eldar player may elect to have the Night Fighting rules apply for the entire game.

This in combination with the Realspace Raiders Detachment would make this very interesting to choose from. I think I will just ask friends to humor me and the fluff in favor of this rule.
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 12:26

I can only assumed they added this because of the various wargear/special rules that can put nightfight in effect later in the game (like the old necron solar pulse)
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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 12:47

@Deamon wrote:
I can only assumed they added this because of the various wargear/special rules that can put nightfight in effect later in the game (like the old necron solar pulse)

While I can understand that, I do find it strange that the Dark Eldar themselves have no option to choose for something suggested here above like "Night Terror". They don't even have wargear like the Corsair Prince's Void Strike to "blot out the sun" for 1 turn.
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omkara
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PostSubject: "Enhanced" Night Shields?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 12:52

Right from the start I've found it very weird that Night Fighting has 0 synergy with the Night Shield. Quickly after that I learned that Dark Eldar don't even have the option to actually fight during the entirety of the night, which is very strange, but let's not digress.

I would like to propose in friendly non-tournament games to make use of what I call the "Enhanced" Night Shield. You've probably guessed it, while the normal Night Shield offers Stealth, the "Enhanced" Night Shield offers Shrouded. Technically speaking, I'd probably opt for removing the concept of the Flickerfield all together and just give it an "Enhanced" Night Shield. 5+ Invulnerable or 5+ Cover Save is basically the same, but now it has synergy with Stealth gained through Night Fighting.

Now my question is, WHAT, would be an acceptable cost for this "Enhanced" Night Shield?

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 12:58

40 pts. 60 if I can stack it with the regular kind.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 12:59

We've got one or two special missions that make it night all game, in the covens book.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 13:12

I hate to say it, but I disagree.
The point and fluff of the Night Shields is that it makes the vehicle appear to be surrounded by night. Double-night is still just night.
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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 13:13

@Jimsolo wrote:
40 pts.  60 if I can stack it with the regular kind.

My thoughts where something like 30 points based on this:

Night Shield offer Stealth which gives Cover +1 = 15 points
Enhanced Night Shield offer Shrouded which gives Cover +2 = 30 points

(the rulebook already indeed states that Shrouded and Stealth have synergy together, which would mean a total of Cover +3, but I'd disallow the use of 2 shields. It's either an Enhanced Night Shield, or a normal one. That being said, I'm trying to press my buddies to allow Night Fighting to last the entire game when I roll positively for it, so that would already offer me Stealth for free)

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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 13:14

@Jimsolo wrote:
We've got one or two special missions that make it night all game, in the covens book.


Woo! The missions nobody but other Dark Eldar players wqill ever be interested in playing! Wooooo!
(I find it hard enough getting my local guys to play Maelstrom mission, let alone Alter/Echoes of War)
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 13:16

Lol, yep.
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omkara
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 13:18

@Squidmaster wrote:
I hate to say it, but I disagree.
The point and fluff of the Night Shields is that it makes the vehicle appear to be surrounded by night. Double-night is still just night.

I have to disagree with you here based on the Shrouded and Night Shields description:

Shrouded
The source of the darkness around these warriors matters not – only a lucky shot has
any chance of piercing the shroud that hides them from view.


Night Shields
The vehicle is covered by a broad-spectrum displacement field, enveloping it in cold and inky darkness. Foes find the vehicle hard to target, hidden as it is within a cloak of roiling shadow.

Based on this, there's no reason why this displacement field could not mimic the "source of darkness" which is attributed to the Shrouded rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 13:26

Hmm interesting. I do have the Coven codex here before me, but where does it specifically mention that the Night Fighting lasts the entire game?

I've only seen that it has Night Fighting rules, which leads me to assume these are just the regular Turn 1 only rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 13:29

The one with the anti-photon engine I know lists it in the rules for the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 13:39

@Jimsolo wrote:
The one with the anti-photon engine I know lists it in the rules for the game.

The Antiphoton Engine: The antiphoton engine is treated as an Immobile Vehicle with an Armour Value of 12 on all facings and 3 Hull Points. The engine’s effects last until it has been completely destroyed.

Yeah I guess this could work.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 13:46

Accept for the fact that it are 2 specifically themed mission in which I'd either fight Chaos or Space Marines. Would be great though to be able to buy that "Antiphoton Engine" device for point cost and which should offer:

Shadow War: The Night Fighting rules are in effect for the entire battle. Furthermore, as long as the antiphoton engine remains operational (see above), all units have the Shrouded special rule, and units belonging to the Haemonculus Covens player cannot be targeted if they are more than 12" away from the firing unit.

Well, how much points do you think such a device would be worth?

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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 13:48

@Jimsolo wrote:
The one with the anti-photon engine I know lists it in the rules for the game.

Echoes of War: Profound Darkness mission.
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PostSubject: The Antiphoton Engine - how much points should this cost?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 13:53

The Antiphoton Engine: The antiphoton engine is treated as an Immobile Vehicle with an Armour Value of 12 on all facings and 3 Hull Points. The engine’s effects last until it has been completely destroyed.

Shadow War: The Night Fighting rules are in effect for the entire battle. Furthermore, as long as the antiphoton engine remains operational (see above), all units have the Shrouded special rule, and units belonging to the Haemonculus Covens player cannot be targeted if they are more than 12" away from the firing unit.

So this is a device only used in a themed Echo Of War mission. This is basically the only way that seems logical for Dark Eldar to fight in the darkness considering they don't have a rule which allows them to actually have Night Fighting on Turn 1 endure through the entire game.

What would be an acceptable point cost to pay to have such a device with you? And what restrictions would be equally reasonable? I'd probably say that you would at the very least need to have a Coven Formation or a Covenite Coterie Detachment.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 14:09

@Jimsolo wrote:
40 pts.  60 if I can stack it with the regular kind.

Holy mother of dog!! I wouldn't pay that for any upgrade short of multiple void shields on an AV 10/11 vehicle!!

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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 14:10

Seems pretty broken to me... this would need to be well of over 300 pts
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 14:15

Merged these topics together as they are all related to the concept of Night Fighting - Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Night Fighting - Seriously only 1 Turn ?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 14:23

Thank you Count Adhemar, for the patience as well Wink

@Deamon wrote:
Seems pretty broken to me... this would need to be well of over 300 pts

It does work both ways, considering that Shrouded is given to all units on top of Stealth. The only thing the enemy will not benefit from is Stealth since DE have Night Vision. Also not being able to be targeted when over 12" away seems a bit too much imho.

Considering that the enemy benefits from Shrouded as well, isn't 300 a bit too much? Especially when I'd prefer leaving out the -not being able to be targeted when over 12" away-.
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