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 How much should Darklight weapons cost?

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Dark_Kindred
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PostSubject: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 02:34

Ceteris Paribus,how much should Blasters and Dark Lances cost to help achieve "external balance"? For the sake of simplicity, we'll focus on squad portable weapons instead of vehicle mounted ones.

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Ispa
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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 04:24

i do not know all codex's off the top of my head......what does every other armies single shot S8 AP2 lance weapons cost?


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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 04:54

Depends on platform. 5-20 points, usually. Honestly, comparing points costs cross-codex usually just ends in madness.

0-10 points on a Raider or Ravager is worth it, in my opinion. Likewise other vehicles.
10-20 on an infantry blaster is reasonable
15-30 is reasonable for a Dark Lance on a squad that can mass them up. Still wouldn't take them on scourges, though.
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Its_Rumble
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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 05:01

I think that on the vehicles they are very nicely priced. But when you start putting blasters and such on warriors, scourges, and trueborn 15pts is a pretty steep price to pay on something so squishy. I think on troops 10pts would be more reasonable, especially since tac marines get multi meltas and meltas for 10 pts a pop.

1 scourge with blaster is 31pts. 1 tac marine with Melta is 24 pts. Meltas are "better" but it comes down to these facts and how you as a player quantify them...

Melta has 12" range but can blow things up at 6". S8 AP1.

Blaster has 18" range and is static.

scourges have a 4+, FNP 5+ (best case scenario) and are jump infantry that can deepstrike.

tac marines can get drop pods and have 3+.

are the differences worth 7 points? If it were just a 2 point difference (10pt blaster) then it isn't even arguable.

I would prefer to pay and play for the scourges. That's just me.

Of course scourges die like it's going out of style after they DS in.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 11:09

Blasters should be 10. Unless they become Assault 2, then they really shouldn't be costing the same as a plasmagun.

Dark Lances should probably be 15 on infantry (since lascannons cost 20 but are better 90-95% of the time). Not to mention they screw up our mobility.

I think Dark Lances on Raiders are ok, but Ravager went the wrong way. Ravager should cost 110 with Dark Lances and 95 with Disintegrators (i.e. it should be disintegrators getting cheaper - not Dark Lances getting more expensive). I also don't think it needed to lose its ability to move 12" and fire all weapons at full BS, but I imagine that's another discussion.

There's also the problem that GW have basically written us into a corner. Dark Lances are awful at the moment, but since they're equivalent to bright lances, GW won't want to buff one without buffing the other. Yet, with Eldar, they've basically buffed everything except bright lances. This is great for Eldar because they now have a plethora of D-weapons and bucketfuls of S6. We, meanwhile, are still stuck with bucketfulls of overpriced, ineffectual Dark Lances (because God forbid we get other weapons).
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 12:37

I don't mind the price but an armor pure
piercing value of one would be nice to make the few pence
penetrating hits we do count. But the main problem is the shredder. That one should be a flame type of weapon.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 12:52

@CptMetal wrote:
I don't mind the price but an armor pure
piercing value of one would be nice to make the few pence
penetrating hits we do count. But the main problem is the shredder. That one should be a flame type of weapon.

Definitely.

As to the cost of dark light weapons.

Trueborn - too expensive for me, I've often looked at putting a unit in a list and always shied away from it.

Scourges - about right, a bit more expensive than haywire and heat lances due to their greater flexibility on the jump infantry platform, but 140 for 4 in a unit of 5 isn't going to break the bank points-wise, plus they have the range and deep strike to take advantage of rear armour values.

Ravagers - 115 seemed about right. I can see why they've taken out the aerial assault rule, and it rarely affects me to be honest.

Warriors - 1 blaster in a unit in a venom doesn't seem massively expensive and it's mostly about redundancy anyway.

I never take infantry mounted dark lances.

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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 13:16

I agree that Blasters should be, at most, 10 points. And every unit should be able to take one per squad.

Also, I'm really disappointed that Talos don't have the option to have TL Dark Lances for their tail guns. Yet another needless restriction to our codex.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 13:45

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Ravagers - 115 seemed about right. I can see why they've taken out the aerial assault rule, and it rarely affects me to be honest.

It affects me virtually every game.

But, there's also the fact that DE vehicles really shouldn't be worrying about moving too fast. Rolling Eyes
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SERAFF
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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 15:34

Compare any of our infantry models with special weapon with fire dragons, who are already with a cool gun and cool armor (and now with coll BS5) at only 22 poits per model. A scourge is 26-31 per model.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 15:42

Comparing any of our units with our Craftworld cousins is likely to make me cry. Sad

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Nariaklizhar
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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 16:08

I hear you Count Adhemar. Its frustrting. I think most dark light is reasonably priced. I miss Ariel Assault the most.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 16:09

Comparing any of our units with craftworld models is likely to make me realise why I collect DE - our models are WAY cooler, even if they're not as effective.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 16:37

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Comparing any of our units with craftworld models is likely to make me realise why I collect DE - our models are WAY cooler, even if they're not as effective.

Yep, and we have plenty of time to admire them as they gather dust on shelves. Rolling Eyes
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SERAFF
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PostSubject: Re: How much should Darklight weapons cost?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 17:05

Of course our miniatures are much more awesome! But our rules are as ugly as Jain Zar's model.

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