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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Fri Jun 19 2015, 22:44

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Yes, I've been thinking about that too.
In the books it was nicely depicted that a Wrack could use his syringes and "medical equippment" to heal heavy wounds in seconds. But obviously they can't resurrect the dead on the fly and neither could a Haemonculus do (however, he might be able with weird wargear).

Restoring wounds would only ever be useful on Grotesques. So, considering covenite healing abilities I think it would make more sense if a Haemonculus would increase the FNP rule by one, similar to the Cronos.

I'm not sure that the rule would only be useful with Grotesques. Dark Artisan could certainly make use of it. And, in this book, I believe Haemonculi can join units of monsters - so a Haemonculus attached to a unit of Talos, Cronos or CTC could use it. If you have another character in the squad, the Haemnculus can heal him. And, of course, he can heal himself. Also, I believe they can buy wings in this book, so he could be healing units in a beast pack.

It's possible you're right anyway, but I just think you're underselling it a bit.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

That's why I said that it could be just wargear as well that gives us such options.
It could be worded like this: "Every Ancient Haemonculus may take 6 items from the Ancient Paraphernalia list", an item may be chosen multiple times and each item can only be used once for X pts.

I was just recently reading though the Biomancy powers and could only think why our Haemonculi don't have something like that.

Enfeeble, Life-Leech, Endurance, Haemorrhage, Iron Arm and even Smite sound like things you would expect every Haemonculus is capable of in one way or another.

Now, it wouldn't need to be only those powers and restoring a wound in a unit (or simply preventing taking an unsaved wound) could be in the Ancient Paraphernalia list. Maybe something like a sacrificial Nightmare doll, or an emergancy infusion of concentrated pain/soul energy.

Ah, I see what you mean.

In that case, I'd say that quite a few of these could just be permanent buffs (if priced correctly).

- Life Leech could be a special gun. Maybe with a slight strength decrease, though I'm not even sure that's necessary.

- Warp Speed could possibly be reduced in power a little and be made permanent. Might depend on how good a haemonculus can actually get in melee.

- Endurance would be fine as it is. Maybe even replace Relentless with IWND (seems more flavourful and useful).

- Haemorrage could be another special gun.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

I agree, but I think they are far too interesting to give them crude weapons like Power Axes.

Oh, granted, I was simply using a Power Axe as an idea of a solid weapon. It has good strength and won't bounce off armour.

The Strange Dark One wrote:
Heck, why shouldn't have access to Ichor Injectors? After all Archons have access to Huskblades as well.

I'm not sure Ichor Injectors would help much (though they should probably replace Flesh Gauntlets at no cost increase). I find that AP2 is much more useful than Fleshbane.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

I don't think they can work as pure melee character for low cost. We already have countless melee HQs and I'd rather like to see an HQ that has other ways to aid our dark forces.

Oh, I quite agree. I wasn't suggesting that Haemonculi become pure melee or anything - I just think that if they're going to be paying for combat stats, they should have a decent selection of melee weapons so they they can make use of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Sat Jun 20 2015, 00:00

The Shredder wrote:
I'm not sure that the rule would only be useful with Grotesques. Dark Artisan could certainly make use of it. And, in this book, I believe Haemonculi can join units of monsters - so a Haemonculus attached to a unit of Talos, Cronos or CTC could use it. If you have another character in the squad, the Haemnculus can heal him. And, of course, he can heal himself. Also, I believe they can buy wings in this book, so he could be healing units in a beast pack.

It's possible you're right anyway, but I just think you're underselling it a bit.

Yeah, I did not give think enough about other possibilities. But My main concern was that it was too specialized.

Speaking from a general game design view of things, the better the armor of a unit is, the more efficient healing will be (in grots case armor is the combination of 6+ Sv, FNP and T5). And on a unit of grotesques this can be really worth a fortune.

Such an abilitiy would scale much more on Grots than on any other unit, which would be a waste not using it on grots.
And I fear if you give grots something that strong, you might end up with something broken.


The Shredder wrote:
Ah, I see what you mean.

In that case, I'd say that quite a few of these could just be permanent buffs (if priced correctly).

- Life Leech could be a special gun. Maybe with a slight strength decrease, though I'm not even sure that's necessary.

- Warp Speed could possibly be reduced in power a little and be made permanent. Might depend on how good a haemonculus can actually get in melee.

- Endurance would be fine as it is. Maybe even replace Relentless with IWND (seems more flavourful and useful).

- Haemorrage could be another special gun.

Hmmm, maybe. My intent was to make the Haemonculus a supporter who can choose whether we uses those apparatus to make himself stronger or the army.

And the reason why I hesitated making it permanent wargear was to encourage diverse use of assets. For permanent wargear you pay a premium price, but if you just buy a healthy range of "one use only items" you can buy items for different situations and shenanigans.

Making it permanent discourages taking different items. And since you can only make an attack once per turn anyway you are guarenteed to waste points when purchasing different items.
So, if you want to cover different threats or have multiple possibilities, you must buy many different pieces of permanent wargear which is probably not worth the cost.

And if you really want a specific item like the life-leech weapon so badly, just take 6 of them, you can only use it until the end of the game anyway.

This way, using the right assets could potentially become an interesting dynamic in composing your army and you must make the best out of every item (you would end up asking whether this would be the best point to use one item or another, or if better opportunities could arise).

Considering that Haemonculi have giant vaults of devastating and ancient wargear, and I think this would depicts the fluff quite well too.


And in a special way, aren't Haemonculi sorcerers too? Necrons can use technology in ways that seems like magic to other races, I think this applies to Haemonculi as well.

The Shredder wrote:
I'm not sure Ichor Injectors would help much (though they should probably replace Flesh Gauntlets at no cost increase). I find that AP2 is much more useful than Fleshbane.

I totally forgot that Ichor Injector does not have AP2 per default but receives it indirectly via the monstrous creature rule. I actually meant an AP2 Ichor Injector.

The Shredder wrote:
Oh, I quite agree. I wasn't suggesting that Haemonculi become pure melee or anything - I just think that if they're going to be paying for combat stats, they should have a decent selection of melee weapons so they they can make use of them.

Oh, definitely. They really should have some nifty wargear or maybe something very specialized.
But I think it should only be an extra.

@Ryu,Grimm
I'm surprised that Haemonculi don't have access to Ossefactors, is this by choice?
I can't see a reason why he should not have access to such a good weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Sat Jun 20 2015, 04:25

The Strange Dark One wrote:
@Ryu,Grimm
I'm surprised that Haemonculi don't have access to Ossefactors, is this by choice?
I can't see a reason why he should not have access to such a good weapon.

I never considered this , more on this at 11

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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Sat Jun 20 2015, 05:40

Changes:
Weapon Profiles
Ichor Injector S User AP2 Melee, Fleshbane, Lethal Dose
Darklance 36" S8 AP2 Salvo 1/1, Blind, Lance

Units:
Haemonculi
Add Ossefactor for +15 pts
Add Ichor Injector +25 pts
Add We Will Not Die Special Rule: Grants It Will Not die to the unit, Multiple instances of this modify the It Will Not Die roll by +1 to a maximum of 3+
Switch Battlefield role of Wracks and Grotesques to better fit options
Remove Squad Size restrictions for Wargear choices on Elites Choices (Including Wracks)

Let me know if you have any specific problems with these changes (other than we still haven't fixed Wych Cult units yet...)

Edit: More solidified Trueborns role by having Options not replace the Splinter Weapon they start with
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Sat Jun 20 2015, 07:17

I don't know how I feel about switching grots and wracks battlefield role. Just seems wrong
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Sat Jun 20 2015, 10:12

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Yeah, I did not give think enough about other possibilities. But My main concern was that it was too specialized.

Speaking from a general game design view of things, the better the armor of a unit is, the more efficient healing will be (in grots case armor is the combination of 6+ Sv, FNP and T5). And on a unit of grotesques this can be really worth a fortune.

Such an abilitiy would scale much more on Grots than on any other unit, which would be a waste not using it on grots.
And I fear if you give grots something that strong, you might end up with something broken.

I really can't see how regenerating one wound per turn on a single grot would break the unit.

I mean, if that was really the case, wouldn't Coven Grotesques already be broken as soon as they get IWND?

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Hmmm, maybe. My intent was to make the Haemonculus a supporter who can choose whether we uses those apparatus to make himself stronger or the army.

And the reason why I hesitated making it permanent wargear was to encourage diverse use of assets. For permanent wargear you pay a premium price, but if you just buy a healthy range of "one use only items" you can buy items for different situations and shenanigans.

I'm not sure about that, to be honest. Making them single-use items just seems a bit dubious - especially for a support character.

It seems like you'd just need too many of them for it to be worthwhile. Either the point cost would make buying multiples of a power ludicrous (in which case you probably wouldn't bother at all), or else it would be cheap enough that you could easily buy enough of that power to last the entire game - in which case you might as well have just made it permanent anyway.

But, I might well be biased in that I have a personal loathing for once-per-game effects. They just always rub me the wrong way.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

I totally forgot that Ichor Injector does not have AP2 per default but receives it indirectly via the monstrous creature rule. I actually meant an AP2 Ichor Injector.

Well, I'd be fine with that. Twisted Evil


The Strange Dark One wrote:

Oh, definitely. They really should have some nifty wargear or maybe something very specialized.
But I think it should only be an extra.

That would suit me fine.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Sun Jun 21 2015, 04:05

I think wyches are fixed. Strength 4 and updated wychsuit is awesome. Also, the change to combat drugs makes them better too. I would get rid of hair trigger BTW. I would also allow hekatrix and syrens to take choice cocktail for 20pts, having all models in unit benifit from the effects
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Tue Jun 23 2015, 22:39

Why did you make Scourges bulky?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Tue Jun 23 2015, 22:52

My guess would be so that you could place them in a raider for added protection?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Wed Jun 24 2015, 00:07

Nariaklizhar wrote:
Why did you make Scourges bulky?

Actually, they where already Bulky (From Jump, check the base rules) I was just making sure that people understood that being Jet-Pack didn't modify their size at all (and to also inform people that they had that special rule). As for putting them into a Raider...they would need a special rule to override the unit type...I'll bring it up to everyone else

Also went on ahead and removed Hair-Trigger Special rule, I really liked the idea of shooting pistols in melee...so until we can-re-work it into a not-so broken/role taking.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Wed Jun 24 2015, 00:32

On a related note, we're still trying to resolve the issue of Wracks vs Grotesques, and the Battlefield roles of Haemonculi Covens...they need a troops choice, so I'm trying to figure out who would make up their rank-and-file/Cannonfodder/People who secure objectives roles. The Wracks level of options (which works well for them) makes them an elites choice, so they'd have to be limited in the troops slots (Which I don't like)...and Grot's durability is complemented by Objective Secured, which is why we moved them there temporarily...wanted to know what you all thought about Grots as troops (Possibly adding a Warlock-esque Haemonculus "Super Sergeant" option to Grots to help them out a bit)
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Wed Jun 24 2015, 00:33

I got confused then, I thought "Bulky (this overrides Jetpack or Jump)", meant that you wanted them to not be resticted as jet-pack infantry.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Wed Jun 24 2015, 02:59

What about this: wracks as elites but take a maximum of 5 special weapons. Grots as troops initially was bothersome, but I kinda like it now.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Wed Jun 24 2015, 09:00

If every Wrack could take an Ossefactor, then they would actually have a role in a Covens themed list as heavy infantry (and Wraith Knight!) killers.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Wed Jun 24 2015, 10:18

Ryu Takeda wrote:

Also went on ahead and removed Hair-Trigger Special rule, I really liked the idea of shooting pistols in melee...so until we can-re-work it into a not-so broken/role taking.

I think shooting in melee should be part of the core rules, tbh.


With regard to troops, I really don't think Grotesques should be troops.

So, how about doing the same with Wracks as GW did with Wyches and Warriors?

Keep your Elite Wracks with all their options, but then have a troop version with a more limited weapon selection (and probably 1-5 special weapons, or something along those lines).

After all, Bloodbrides and Trueborn use the same models as Wyches and Warriors, so why not have Wracks do the same?

Just a thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Wed Jun 24 2015, 14:53

Hmm, I like that idea better than Grotesques as troops. So what you call these new wrack troops? And what would you call their new Acothyst?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Wed Jun 24 2015, 16:20

I may have to get back to you on that one. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Wed Jun 24 2015, 22:11

What about 'Flayers' and a 'Tormentor' as their sergeant?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Sun Jun 28 2015, 06:31

Hmm. Not bad. The more I think about wracks and their role in a dark eldar army, the more I think they should remain elites at 10pts a model. They should, however , be given the ability to take 2 special weapons. The should also become troops if a heamonculus is taken, just like in our last codex.

On a different note, I have been messing with this homebrew codex for a week or so now and I have to admit that I am having way too much fun. There are tons of stuff I already like in it but I did change some minor things here and there. My buddies that I play with are interested in seeing it too. I have a game scheduled with them next week so I'll post on how it goest. Question though; how do I upload my edited version of the this homebrew codex so you can all look at it?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Tue Jun 30 2015, 21:43

So I made a version of my own. (Using the home-brew from this forum) The majority was left unchanged, however, there are a few changes. Just thought I would post it to get some feed back.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aHTWInUyU8JGesrzQhVj59T3bajIAe-IcusUpBplpQ4/pub
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Tue Jun 30 2015, 22:17

Here's a question for all of you, what is the role of the Grotesques on the Battlefield, and why take them over other options (Assume for a moment that they where available in all non-HQ slots, and evaluate if you would take them relative to other options in that slot). I'm just having a hard time seeing why you would take them compared to other options available in the elites slot...

(Still running some tests with a "Flayer"-esque unit, although as expected nothing really out of the ordinary there, just want to try to find a place for grots to really excel at something, and their kit is really good for holding objectives with an IC to boost their leadership)
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Tue Jun 30 2015, 22:22

I've only glanced at it, but one thing I'd recommend is giving things like the Mindphase Gauntlet some sort of effect to actually help the user cause damage in melee (Shred, poison, rending - anything that means you're not relying on a S3 character to cause damage on his own tongue ). Said effect could easily replace concussive - which isn't worth the cost of the ink used to print it.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Tue Jun 30 2015, 22:47

Feeling passive aggressive today, were working on a wychcult PfP table " and they shall know no fear" is fluffy and effective and now yours at turn 4

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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Tue Jun 30 2015, 22:51

That popping sound you just heard was every marine player's eyes shooting out and bursting on their computer screens.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)   Tue Jun 30 2015, 23:22

Grotesques are our durible assault unit that can actually dish out some pain too. Wyches, even though are 4++ in close combat, only have 3T. I guess talos do a similar thing as Grotesques but talos are much more expensive and can't be put on a raider
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