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Mindstrike1
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PostSubject: Dark Artisan   Thu Apr 23 2015, 14:25

Hi Guys,

I've recently looked through the haemonculus covens book and i've taken a liking to the Dark Artisan formation. My only question is what is it meant to do. Any advice on what you do with yours and what you equip them with would be appreciated.
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Thu Apr 23 2015, 14:45

It can do a lot.

I especially like giving a WWP to the Haemy. Nothing wreck your opponnent's place like a Talos and a Chronos in the middle of is gunline.

It's also exceptionnally good when combined with the Corpse Thief formation (the chronos give the CT a 4+ FNP and the Haemy makes them reroll their 1s)
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Thu Apr 23 2015, 15:50

Just a couple of points. The haemy only lets the Talos and Cronos re-rolls FNP 1's if he's the Warlord (I have got a list I'd like to get to at some point with 2 DA's, only one at most could benefit from the re-rolls).

Second, my response to the question of 'what is it meant to do'? It's meant to get shot at, scare the pants off your opponent and generally mess up whatever strategy they thought they had.

It's not quick, it's not got a lot of firepower, but it is incredibly good at soaking up fire (conventional fire that is, not D-stuff like wraithguard etc can spit out) and is immensely useful in the capture the relic mission, since with a WWP you can drop in and pick it up, then just wander off with it and there's not much most armies can do to you.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Thu Apr 23 2015, 19:01

Quote :
My only question is what is it meant to do.
IT meant to rock.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Thu Apr 23 2015, 19:19

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
My only question is what is it meant to do.
IT meant to rock.

Until D-gun spam Sad I seriously think to get off DA from my list, against Eldar.
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Thu Apr 23 2015, 19:21

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Second, my response to the question of 'what is it meant to do'? It's meant to get shot at, scare the pants off your opponent and generally mess up whatever strategy they thought they had.

This.

It is a huge threat that, when deep struck into your opponent's face, will have to be dealt with so your other units can get into position for the attack. If it's not addressed, it'll charge and do a LOT of damage to your opponent due to the number of attacks and power. While more expensive, it's a similar tactic to why Space Wolves take Murderfang in a drop pod. He's not THAT good; however, he's an undeniable threat that needs to deal with else he becomes amazing.

As for gear - here's my usual breakdown
- Haemy, Scissorhand, WWP, Nightmare Doll
- Cronos, probe
- Talos, Chain Flails, TL Heat Lance (or keep TL Splinter Cannon)

The Scissorhand on the Haemy has worked out best for me due to the potential of rending. The Doll relic is expensive; however, it adds a nice level of resiliency as it gives the Haemy a 4+ FNP in the event the Cronos dies early and survives ID weapons if in a challenge. I used to do the mask but found the Doll works better as a fail safe against force and other pesky abilities without list tailoring.

The rest is pretty standard stuff. The Cronos and Talos work really well together to address pretty much any threat. As such, the Spinter Cannon is good if you find them up against a lot of infantry while the Heat Lance works great for tank popping as well as anti-TEQ.

It's a moderately expensive formation; however, it is VERY resilient and effective. it's a distraction unit as well as a unit with a bit of bite if left uncheck. It IS slow; however, can provide a lot of deployment options as well (my Marine opponents hate it as I will deploy it in my deployment zone instead of deep strike it to somewhat counter their drop pods).
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Mindstrike1
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri Apr 24 2015, 14:23

Thanks for the replies!

I'm used to playing with my ultramarines and I don't use any distraction units in them. So when I looked over the DA, I was confused on what it was meant to achieve. I'm still slightly weary, but hopefully I should be able to get a couple of games in soon and see how it performs.
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri Apr 24 2015, 14:38

@Mindstrike1 wrote:
Thanks for the replies!

I'm used to playing with my ultramarines and I don't use any distraction units in them. So when I looked over the DA, I was confused on what it was meant to achieve. I'm still slightly weary, but hopefully I should be able to get a couple of games in soon and see how it performs.

Something to keep in mind is that the DA formation has majority toughness of 7 and the Talos & Cronos have a 3+ save and FNP. With the probe it's FNP 4+. Statistically speaking, they will only lose 1 in 12 wounds dealt to them. That number gets better if the formation's Haemy is your warlord which allows the Cronos and Talos to reroll FNP rolls of 1. So S4&5 shots wound on 6's, meaning your opponent has to concentrate larger armaments to reliably hurt the unit. If they don't take out the unit, it'll charge next turn (potentially) and have a great time in the ranks.

Last night I played it a different way to try something different. I deployed it normally in my deployment zone and walked it forward slowly. My opponent perceived it as a large enough threat that they continued to move up and fire large armaments at it despite that it wasn't going to really touch his units until turn 3. It drew them out so it was easier for me to kill with other things.

So - yea it's a distraction unit and cna be played to force your opponent to deal with it or get hurt by it.
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Duke Daedric
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri Apr 24 2015, 14:54

For me it is actually more useful when deployed normally. As Unhollyllama said, it gives some relief to your other units which would quickly dissapear under volume of fire that DA soaks quite easy.
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Mayk0l
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri Apr 24 2015, 16:13

Last Tuesday I played a game with the Dark Artisan formation in my normal Dark Eldar list. My friend played Necrons. He spread his forces in deployment and I swept from one flank. The deepstriking DA Formation was awesome. It ended up in combat with 11 Necron warriors, 4 Wraiths, a Tomb Spider, a Necron Lord en 10 scarabs for multiple rounds of combat.

The formation took 1 wound which was promptly removed after an 'it will not die' roll and won the combat, destroying all Scarabs, three Wraiths and 11 Warriors before the game ended. Would I have had another round, I'd have taken the last wounds off of the Spider and the Wraith as well.

So, yeah, epic durability is one thing!
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@miral
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri Apr 24 2015, 17:17

Epic durability also means that if you keep rolling 2's and 3's it dies really quick. Happened once, I lost the Talos in one turn of concentrated fire. Still, not much else was hit that turn.

I ususally put the Haemy out front to tank a little (not my warlord) and because only he eventually profits from IWND. I give the Talos the flamer and the HL, so he is a) flexible and b) stuff that is flamed (jetbikes!) runs off the table due to -1 LD. I play a Succi in Grots with a WWP for another -2 LD, they work good together if they arrive the same turn.
I deploy mission markers close together and hope for the warlord trait that helps with reserve or the fearless one from the DE book.
I think about including a bastion for reserve manipulation. Or, should I enter a hardcore tournament, maybe Eldar Allies. But most tourneys I went to only allowed two detachments and were small enough so that you don't have to play a "try hard" list to have fun.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri Apr 24 2015, 17:38

@Mayk0l wrote:
Last Tuesday I played a game with the Dark Artisan formation in my normal Dark Eldar list. My friend played Necrons. He spread his forces in deployment and I swept from one flank. The deepstriking DA Formation was awesome. It ended up in combat with 11 Necron warriors, 4 Wraiths, a Tomb Spider, a Necron Lord en 10 scarabs for multiple rounds of combat.

The formation took 1 wound which was promptly removed after an 'it will not die' roll and won the combat, destroying all Scarabs, three Wraiths and 11 Warriors before the game ended. Would I have had another round, I'd have taken the last wounds off of the Spider and the Wraith as well.

So, yeah, epic durability is one thing!

I take it that it was the Haemonculus who took the wound?
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Mayk0l
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri Apr 24 2015, 18:05

Yeah it was the Haemonculus. How do you know?

I also killed the lord by the way Smile
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The PayneTrayn
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri Apr 24 2015, 18:42

Only haemonculus gets IWND in that group.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri Apr 24 2015, 19:33

@Mayk0l wrote:
Yeah it was the Haemonculus. How do you know?

Only the Haemonculus has IWND.

@Mayk0l wrote:
I also killed the lord by the way Smile

Hah, nice.

Also nice to see that we have a unit that can beat Necrons at their own attrition game. Very Happy
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Mayk0l
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri Apr 24 2015, 20:05

Ow right of course, the others have no PfP Smile
It's a slow unit but if you can force the opponent to deal with it, like in a relic game, they're stellar.
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Dirtydeeds
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Thu Apr 30 2015, 05:53

My favorite thing to do right now is to park two squads of two talos in a building with the Dark Artisan hiding behind them while I eat for my reserves to come in. I lost only two talos by the end of turn three to necrons. (Grots came in turn three)
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Thu Apr 30 2015, 08:54

Talos in a building?

Love the idea of eating a burger or two while waiting for reserves to arrive after two or three turns Very Happy Be sure to bring Comm's to hold them back or get sooner if needed.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Thu Apr 30 2015, 08:56

Are you sure that MCs can stay into the buildings? :-/
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Thu Apr 30 2015, 14:14

@Dirtydeeds wrote:
My favorite thing to do right now is to park two squads of two talos in a building with the Dark Artisan hiding behind them while I eat for my reserves to come in.  I lost only two talos by the end of turn three to necrons.  (Grots came in turn three)

I can only presume that by Building you mean Ruins....since MCs can't embark into a building.
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Dirtydeeds
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri May 01 2015, 05:33

Yeah I meant ruins. And the beauty of the talos is that you don't need reserve manipulation. Depending on the game type it's actually a better idea for the grotesques to come in turn three or later when the benefit from it will not die.
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri May 01 2015, 13:04

You gotta be careful with that... I run a null deployment list with a unit of 2 talos. They're the only thing I deploy. Last night I played against the new Eldars on a table with no LOS blocking terrain. Out of habits, I deployed my Talos in cover. Then I saw my opponents deploy 2 Vypers and a Wraithknight in front of him (well sh*t). I got saved by 2 things : First, my opponent was cocky and deployed his jetbikes out of range (he was running them with SC instead of SL) and secondly, he wiffed both heavy Wraithcannon shots with his WK. I could have easily been tabled turn 1...

My point is : Reserve manipulation is a must if you keep the majority of your army in reserve. My army is so successful becase I deny 1-2 turn of shooting/assault to my opponents and all my army arrive to cripple his. If I fail to do this, it's going to be an uphill battle for me.
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@miral
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri May 01 2015, 14:11

Good point! Do you use any reserve manipulation? And just out of curiosity, how did the game continue? How do the new Eldar play and how did you handle the Knight?
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri May 01 2015, 15:00

My opponent wasn't playing an optimised list. It was something like 5 jetbikes with SC, 3 Jetbike with SC, 3 Jetbike with SC, Some reapers with ?MoganRah? a WK, a Farseer on bike, an Autarch on bike, an Hemlock, a Wave Serpent with 10 DA, 2 Vypers and something like 10 Swooping hawk.

My list : Archon with WWP, 4 x 5 Kabalite with Sybarite (HWG), blaster in venoms, 2 Ravagers, 2 Razorwing with necrotoxine missile/DL/SC, an empty raider, 2 Talos (Ichor injector), 3 bare windriders, Autarch with Fusion gun and 5 Wraithguards with D-Scythe.

I deployed the Talos (alone which like I said was a mistake) and gave him first turn. The WK and the Vypers took 1 wound off a talos in turn one. The Talos put a wound on his Autarch. Turn 2 he killed a Talos and took a wound off the other. In my turn everything arrived save a venom. The WG took out the WK, the Farseer and the Autarch. The Razorwing forced his Hemlock to jinx, the Ravager whiffed on the WS, the venom killed all the Reapers. The Talos failed to wound anything.

Turn 3, he forced 2 Venoms to jinx, taking a hull point off each. The WS killed a Ravager. His bikes destroyed the raider forcing the WG & friends to disembark and finished the Talos. In my turn, the WG killed the Vypers. My venoms destroyed the 5 men jetbikes unit and 2 from a 3 man unit. The Razorwing killed all Swooping hawk save 2. The Ravager failed to kill the WS.

From there it went downhill for him... HEmlock jinxed every turn, I finished MoganRah, Destroyed the WS in assault with some warriors and the venoms finished his DA. I only lost a venom during the last 3 turns).

Long story short : Null Deployment saved me from his superior firepower and my Autarch was critical in bringing almost all my army on turn 2 (I rolled three '2' during my reserve rolls). I could have severly crippled his bikes without letting them do anything but I was more scared of the Reapers. My RJ made the Hemlock pretty inefficcient. The WK would have ruined my day but WG+WWP is just broken and allowed me to annihilate him without giving him a chance to shoot at anything but the Talos.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Artisan   Fri May 01 2015, 17:10

An Autarch allows you to reroll the reserve rolls?
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