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 Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?

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Deamon
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PostSubject: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sat Apr 18 2015, 22:18

When our codex came out, it was pretty obvious to me that GW wanted give us the option to make an army based around leadership shenanigan... Torment grande launcher, archangel of pain, armor of misery...the formations bonus of the coven supplement...etc I loved the idea that our army could be based around "fear bombs". I ended up never doing it because I always build TAC list and well... I don't want to base my army around a concept half the codex can ignore (GW really dropped it with that one).

But now... the biggest threat I see are the new eldar jet bike with their insane amount of cheap S6 shots. In my current list I can only rely on mass splinter shot, Razorwing missiles and null deployment to counter them. I could give them a taste of their how medicine by adding some D-Schyte WG with a WWP HQ to burn them to death... But this got me thinking... Raiders with TGL, Sybarite with TGL, Armor of mysery and one or 2 Coven formations could be pretty efficient against these Jetbikes (and pretty much everything in their army). The real question is : Does it worth it if you consider all those points are going to be wasted against marines?
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Dark Lance
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sun Apr 19 2015, 01:22

Great question - IMHO wrong enemy.  I am beginning to pick up clues on how difficult it has become to kill Necrons.  We can kill our cousins with plenty of weapons. The necrons are figuratively and perhaps literally 2x as hard to kill. The necron Immortals cost the same as vanilla Eldar jetbikes. They are the same toughness (T4) and have the same Sv (3+). Then they get an extra save, a 4+ reanimation protocal that is better than FnP, as they can take it even when no saving throws are allowed. One hundred shots of BS4 poison will kill 11. I believe the same shots against Eldar will kill 22.

Necrons are resilient to everyone not just DE. However, they are not fearless.

They are leadership 10 so they are used to standing around after taking very few losses. If we can take off 3 points of leadership it could make a big difference. Maybe we can combine with our brothers and use some fire dragons, Vypers to get part the 3+ save or swamp them with S6 shots, while we get in close with all the anti LD items in our inventory. You've got me thinking this enemy is a great reason to combine efforts.
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sun Apr 19 2015, 01:52

I'm not sure it would work well against necron. On 2 dice you'll get an average of 7, so more often than not, you won't hurt Necrons if they are not debuffed. We can give them a penalty of -3 but we can only bet on 1-2 wounds per shot.

I had great success against Necron blob with a pair of Razorwing unloading all their missile when they arrived.
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jbwms713
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sun Apr 19 2015, 02:03

More than that, you can't rely on any wounds vs Ld 7. Ld 7 will pass more often than it will fail, as it is. And that's with your HQ and other units all against this one unit, and then what? You kill... 4? And half stand back up...

There are ways to do it, I just have yet to see a way that makes the soulfright worth the investment.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sun Apr 19 2015, 06:15

Freakshow lists do a little better. You can stack penalties pretty high; I routinely get -4s with mine.
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sun Apr 19 2015, 11:25

-4? How? You can't stack the penalty from the formations...
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sun Apr 19 2015, 12:55

of course you can! The rule applies to each formation and as they are separate detachments they stack.

Would you forbid Tau with markerlights in a CAD and a farsight enclave the ability to stack them?

Same thing

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sun Apr 19 2015, 13:18

@Massaen wrote:
of course you can! The rule applies to each formation and as they are separate detachments they stack.

Would you forbid Tau with markerlights in a CAD and a farsight enclave the ability to stack them?

Same thing

I don't think it works, the rule says about one or more Freakish spectacle unit, indipendent by the formations/detatchment.


Anyway, you can do something with Harlequins.


Come back it, I will play mostly the relic that causd -2 LD phantasm test at 9", instead of multiple greneade launchers. This+Misery armour+coven+ shadowseer maskeventually...something likd that.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sun Apr 19 2015, 13:31

You need to re read the rule. It very clearly specifies detachment so if you have multiple units across multiple detachments you can apply it from all of them

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sun Apr 19 2015, 14:49

@Massaen wrote:
You need to re read the rule. It very clearly specifies detachment so if you have multiple units across multiple detachments you can apply it from all of them

The problem with that is that it's still the same special rule and special rules don't stack with each other unless specifically told to. It's debatable but I wouldn't rely on being able to stack them.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sun Apr 19 2015, 16:16

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
You need to re read the rule. It very clearly specifies detachment so if you have multiple units across multiple detachments you can apply it from all of them

The problem with that is that it's still the same special rule and special rules don't stack with each other unless specifically told to. It's debatable but I wouldn't rely on being able to stack them.

This has come up before. If it wasn't supposed to stack, it would say 'within 12" of one or more units with this rule" not "within 12" of a unit in this detachment".

I've never run into a player in real life who didn't think they stacked.

Even if your TO wants to house rule it to screw you, then you still have the Armor of Misery, Mask of Secrets, Terrify, AND Freakish Spectacle to stack in various ways.
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alexwellace
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sun Apr 19 2015, 23:35

I was considering this to beat those pesky Jetbikes. I run RSR with a Dark Artisan and The Heroes Path formation, which gives me a great amount of leadership negatives i can stack. That Death Jester should do really well, almost guaranteeing a failed Leadership Test and forcing the Bikes to run 3D6 in any way i like. Hug those board edges at your own peril.

My biggest question is how do Leadership based psykic powers work vs the Wraithknight? Specifically Psy-Shriek, Laugh of Sorrows and Mirror of Minds. If i impose a -5 (Mask, Misery, spectacle) then it's impossible for the Wraithknight to beat the Shadowseer in the Mirror of Minds, so that would insta kill him Garg Creature or not.

Seems the meta shifts once more!
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sun Apr 19 2015, 23:39

Quote :
My biggest question is how do Leadership based psykic powers work vs the Wraithknight? Specifically Psy-Shriek, Laugh of Sorrows and Mirror of Minds. If i impose a -5 (Mask, Misery, spectacle) then it's impossible for the Wraithknight to beat the Shadowseer in the Mirror of Minds, so that would insta kill him Garg Creature or not.

Works if if does work on fearless creatures. That is of course if you are able to cast the powers as eldar do mount significantly more warp charges than DE.
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Mon Apr 20 2015, 03:28

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
You need to re read the rule. It very clearly specifies detachment so if you have multiple units across multiple detachments you can apply it from all of them

The problem with that is that it's still the same special rule and special rules don't stack with each other unless specifically told to. It's debatable but I wouldn't rely on being able to stack them.

At first I thought you might be confusing special rules with psychic powers (that isn't the case, by the way, so I'm glad I didn't shoot my mouth off!) I didn't say anything at the time because I needed to dig my book out to re-read it before trying to quote rules. However, the book does not say that special rules don't stack unless otherwise told, it says 'a model may not gain the benefit of a special rule more than once.' (And it goes on to say that the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative.)

While some people take the stance that each Formation is presenting a 'different' instance of the rule, the language there is debatable. What is more clear, however, is that a unit in the range of multiple Freakish Spectacle formations is not gaining any benefit whatsoever. It's just being affected by multiple special rules. If a special rule couldn't affect a unit more than once, there are other rules that would suddenly cause complications.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Thu Apr 23 2015, 05:42

If you're interested in these fear-based tactics (which I've been calling Freakshow tactics), then I've started a series of strategy guides intended for just such a list, which you can find here.
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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sat Apr 25 2015, 20:25

A really funny way to kill necrons is to ping their leadership with, for example, gruesome spectacle and AoM. Next, tank shock them while they are LD7, then disembark after they route, and assault. If they fail to rally they are swept. Beauty there is you can do it to multiple units as long as they are inside of the ping bubble.
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Sat Apr 25 2015, 22:46

@Dark Lance wrote:
 Then they get an extra save, a 4+ reanimation protocal that is better than FnP, as they can take it even when no saving throws are allowed.

Just quoting this to make sure you haven't been playing this wrong, but I am pretty sure FnP is also allowed when no saving throws are allowed, as it is not a saving throw. I do believe the rules for FnP specifically say this. RP is better than FnP because it works better against Instant Death.
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 16:43

FNP is not a saving throw & thus can be taken against all wounds unless they explicitly forbid making use of FNP. That said, it can be used against anything not causing instant death, wounds from sD weaponry, or "remove from play" effects.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Mon Apr 27 2015, 21:41

Quote :
A really funny way to kill necrons is to ping their leadership with, for example, gruesome spectacle and AoM. Next, tank shock them while they are LD7, then disembark after they route, and assault. If they fail to rally they are swept. Beauty there is you can do it to multiple units as long as they are inside of the ping bubble.

Quote :
If the vehicle had not moved before the unit disembarked, the vehicle can then move normally. If the vehicle had already moved before the unit disembarked, the vehicle cannot move further that turn (including pivoting on the spot, moving Flat Out, Running or charging). In addition, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock or Ram on a turn that a unit disembarks from it.

Nope...
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 09:39

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
A really funny way to kill necrons is to ping their leadership with, for example, gruesome spectacle and AoM. Next, tank shock them while they are LD7, then disembark after they route, and assault. If they fail to rally they are swept. Beauty there is you can do it to multiple units as long as they are inside of the ping bubble.

Quote :
If the vehicle had not moved before the unit disembarked, the vehicle can then move normally. If the vehicle had already moved before the unit disembarked, the vehicle cannot move further that turn (including pivoting on the spot, moving Flat Out, Running or charging). In addition, a vehicle cannot Tank Shock or Ram on a turn that a unit disembarks from it.

Nope...

Use 2 Raiders?

Or Disembark first.

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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 15:12

If a necron use glory or death and lose, does his reanimation protocol apply?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 15:48

RP does not work if the model is ‘removed from play’ but Death or Glory says the model is immediately 'removed as a casualty', which is not the same thing. I'd say RP works as normal.


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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Will the new Eldar jetbikes make Torment Grenade Launcher worth it?   Tue Apr 28 2015, 17:28

Quote :
Or Disembark first.

You still can't tankshock...
Quote :

a vehicle cannot Tank Shock or Ram on a turn that a unit disembarks from it.

Except you mean "a turn before" which basically means your unit gets shot to shreds...
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