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Lord Mal
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 06:19

Ironically, I feel sorry for Eldar Players more than everyone else, because Eldar are about to have half their book removed at tournaments from restrictions, and gaming groups are basically going to roll their eyes or not play people with certain lists after a while.

Luckily, some people will restrain themselves out of being nice, but the unfortunate truth is that you can't rely on that, and this is just filthy considering people really haven't gotten a chance yet to sit down and think about combos yet.

I'm a complete novice to 40k, and I can tell at a glance from the point costs that this army list can be bent extremely easily, so what's going to happen when people that are looking to bend something really give it a good once over? In both Fantasy and 40k I usually don't see the argument about them making units that are really good the new shiny models, because they quite frequently release bad units that have shiny new models. The Wraithknight points though...it sure looks like an obvious money grab to boost sales for this quarter to me...
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 08:58

Calm down people, just wait for first games and whole codex. There may be scores of ways to deal with em, Reserve came to mind. This can really get to who hit who first, they dont seem to be paragons of durability. They can trash us but so can we. Typical Eldar fight.

If you are that concerned - Torment Grenade Launcher seems to be made for this fight. They are still LD8 and Warlocks still had LD8 last time i saw them.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 09:13

Quote :
If you are that concerned - Torment Grenade Launcher seems to be made for this fight. They are still LD8 and Warlocks still had LD8 last time i saw them.

Which averages in 0 wounds.
If you go on to add in Coven formations and armor of misery, you are dedicating a lot of points just to get rid of a squad of 3 Windriders.

To be fair it is not only the windriders. Their aspects are BS5 or WS5 and come with a galore of built-in special rules.
Banshees were one of the worst units in 6th. Now they got fear, -2 Ld, +3" on assault and run, ignore overwatch and do not lose Initiative if they assault through cover. No points raise.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 09:48

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Now they got fear, -2 Ld, +3" on assault and run, ignore overwatch and do not lose Initiative if they assault through cover. No points raise.
They get all of these? Wow )) Thats the only aspect unit i dont have. They should be buffed, they were trash before.

Quote :
If you go on to add in Coven formations and armor of misery, you are dedicating a lot of points just to get rid of a squad of 3 Windriders.
Nah, im getting my Harlequin Squad with Archon together with -4 LD stuff . I will get it regardless of targets.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 10:00

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Nah, im getting my Harlequin Squad with Archon together with -4 LD stuff . I will get it regardless of targets.

They still have to get within 12" and you will still only kill a single unit of 3 jetbikes, while their 47 friends still sit at 36" and pump out that 188 S6 shots.

Quote :
They get all of these? Wow )) Thats the only aspect unit i dont have. They should be buffed, they were trash before.

As I said, that was their worst aspect. All others got buffed in a similar way, so technically they are still their worst aspect.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 11:41

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They still have to get within 12" and you will still only kill a single unit of 3 jetbikes, while their 47 friends still sit at 36" and pump out that 188 S6 shots.
If they split it by 3s, they will roll LD on each loss. SO get a bubble there, cause wounds with venoms and everything else. Anyway, i still think that whoever will do better alpha-strike will gain the advantage.

50 jetbikes is a massive massive footprint, so many together. Also that takes someone really dedicated to bring that many together. Even those who play Saim-Hann now usually have about 20 or so. Most folks have 2x3.

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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 17:03

The bikes aren't the problem. venoms will kill 1.33 each so 6 venoms will kill 8 guys and neuter a squad. What will hurt is wraith knights negating 1 of the 2 guns we have (poison) while they romp around and destroy stuff. So them with wave serpents makes us chose where to shoot the lances at (until they kill all the lance items) and then we are dead.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 17:15

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The bikes aren't the problem. venoms will kill 1.33 each so 6 venoms will kill 8 guys and neuter a squad.

All that while the equal points in bikes (14) will kill 6 (!) Venoms per turn.
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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 17:50

no they wont. they will kill 1 venom.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 18:01

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
no they wont. they will kill 1 venom.

What makes you think that Windriders can not go MSU?
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Lord Mal
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 18:37

The sad part is, I'm really not sure how much of a power difference it is if you spam one thing vs another. As has been said, Banshees are their "worst" thing, and are quite good compared to most books assault units. I know everyone is concerned, rightfully so, about jetbike spam or Wraith Knight Spam, but what about when they combine stuff? I think a balanced list with a lot of the choices that uses the formations and synergy with some bikes and at least one Wraithknight would be absolutely murderous.
I really want to lay out some of the challenging units so that some people can see how facing a lot of these problems at once is going to be extremely challenging. Any corrections are welcome.

-Wave Serpents are still there, and are still quite good even though they're no longer the be all end all.

-Warp spiders can now jump away from a unit trying to shoot at them 2D6, and the unit can't shoot at something else when the Spiders are no longer in range or LOS.

-Dark Reapers re-roll to hit against anything flying, moved flat out, or turboboosted, and ignores jink saves.

-Dire Avengers get Overwatch at BS 2

-Banshees get +3" when running or assaulting. Ignore I penalties when assaulting through difficult terrain. Fear. No Overwatch allowed when Banshees assault, -2 leadership penalty for units in CC with them. (This one makes me drool for what DE Assault units could have been).

-Scorpions get Stealth. Shrouded until they fire or assault, and Mandiblasters inflict a wound on a 4+ regardless of toughness.

-Firedragons get +1 on the vehicle damage chart.

- Swooping Hawks move 18", and when moving over a Flyer the can do a special attack that hits on 4+, S4, AP4 Haywire. Same price as Scourges.

-Shining spears get a 4+ Cover if they moved previously.

I could keep going on all the buffs for Walkers and Vehicles, but I think the people that weren't aware of the changes get the picture. Lots of buffs, not much in the way of point increases.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 19:00

And all that without even factoring in some of the bigger formation boni...
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kourac31
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 19:11

Agaisnt windrider, the venom/raider+medusae in DS or Wwp could do the trick. Also use of the beast pack kimerae is a good option to do multicharge
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Manners_Cat
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 20:32

I think a decent counter to the gargantuan Wraith Knight would be ichor injector Taloi actually, since gargantuans are resistant to poison but not fleshbane, and ID attacks do D3 wounds to them with no FnP.

Now if only there was a way to bypass the guns, movement, higher initiative and D melee weapons we'd be set! Wink

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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Sun Apr 19 2015, 21:15

@Manners_Cat wrote:

Now if only there was a way to bypass the guns, movement, higher initiative and D melee weapons we'd be set! Wink

"But other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln...?"  Smile
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Mon Apr 20 2015, 00:56

The Wraithknight was D melee and Stomp attack... you only get 1 wrong of attack before it kills you off...

I rather shoot Dark Lances at it.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Mon Apr 20 2015, 01:09

Don't forget that you need the firepower of roughly 9 Ravagers to kill the new knight... if it is in the open and the Warlocks do not want to heal him back up.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Mon Apr 20 2015, 12:17

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Don't forget that you need the firepower of roughly 9 Ravagers to kill the new knight... if it is in the open and the Warlocks do not want to heal him back up.

All I said I rather Shoot DL's than melee it... Its a hard fight either way.

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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Mon Apr 20 2015, 15:41

With this new codex Tau and Guard become tier one in terms of facing a bike army. That is the hands down truth. Also from what I have heard, WraithKnights are LoW.

To deal with the bikes.....flyer dropping plates? True they jink and armor but you have the potential to hit A LOT. As far as turn 1....grots in a 3+ Jink? Talos? Something that will survive. Also......liguifiers just got good if you can get there with them. Ignore cover and only 4s to wound....not to mention the 50 percent chance to ignore cover. Webway in a hammi or archon with grot squad. All liquifier guns....have fun bikes.
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Mon Apr 20 2015, 15:43

Liquifier are S3, jetbikes are T4 so they only wound on 5.
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Mon Apr 20 2015, 15:47

Ah yes forgot about the bike adding 1. Still could be of use.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Mon Apr 20 2015, 15:48

Quote :
As far as turn 1....grots in a 3+ Jink? Talos? Something that will survive.

May I introduce you to Wraithguard.
Place a template across the Raider/talos, roll a 3+ and cause D3 wounds /hullpoints with AP2 ignoring FnP (+ through the "tere is no escape rule of templates, to the embarked unit too).
Do this another 4 times as you have 5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes.
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JackKnife01
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Mon Apr 20 2015, 15:55

I know wraithguard, but still if you are planing yo build some unstopabble force you might as well stop play this army. Dark Eldar about wining where you can. Please note in said against bikes. I did not say against wraithguard. I know they have answer to this squad. Just like we have venoms and did ravengers to answer wraithguard.

It is like a quote from Team Four Star "we shall plan around their plan. Who will in turn plan around our plan. Who will the plan around their plan around our plan." My point. Every tangent cannot be covered. To try and do so is going to be maddening. At some point tactics and luck are needed.
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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Mon Apr 20 2015, 16:27

We have to stop making incorrect assumptions and deal with actual probabilities. DE re not going to do well against the new Eldar. We have to stop advising - well just avoid that WK. It a jump GMC. Good luck with that plan. Sure DE can kill a few bikes. The question is how much damage will the bikes do before you kill them? You realize that their movement is a little broken and their range is excellent defense (this apart from jink etc.).  

As an example:
-Wracks have a ranged AP2 Fleshbane weapon. This hurts GMCs But it takes 1040pts of Wracks with Ossefactors (not including transports)s to take down a Wraithknight.
-20 Venoms at 1300pts, without passengers can reliably kill a WK
-9 Dark Lance Ravagers at 1125pts can reliably kill a WK
-4 Talos can hoild up that WK at a cost of 520 pts but they will never reach the WK

Now we have to deal with:
-5 Wraithguard with scythes will kill anything in our army.
-2 squads Swooping Hawks will now take out all our vehicles with ease
-Jetbikes will destroy AV10 paper skimmers and any units on foot

I'm not even going to bother mentioning Fire Dragons with bladestorm or the new buffs Dark Reapers got. So enough about play the mission and there are intangibles. Pure DE have the odds heavily stacked against them when they face Eldar now. Now there are armies that can handle Eldar. Unfortunately ours is NOT one of them. As mentioned above wyvern Guard will destroy bikes. Tau have some potent answers as well. Necrons will still compete against them. Even skitarii have some options with rad poison and onagers with neutron blasts.

What is unfortunate about the WK is the cost. It does not take up that many points percentage wise in a DE list. Most of the answers to a WK cost more than the WK itself. An example would be a destroyer cult in a Necron force. The WK might kill a destroyer a turn. The destroyers will whittle down that WK slowly. But the points you a tying up to do it makes this approach a little one sided for the Eldar player.

This same type of probables can be applied to bikes as well. At the cost of a bike and them being ObSec troops we are aware they are a powerful tool in a skilled player's hands.

So yes, the probabilities. We have got to assume that the Eldar player knows his stuff. We have to assume he is aware of the range he has on his weapons. There will be no easy wins against a well constructed tournament Eldar list.

I would not give up DE but if I played them at a tournament I would add Eldar. Fight fire with fire so to speak. It is a harsh reality. I've said this before. The 'sky is not falling'. We do need to approach Eldar games differently as pure DE will in all 'probability' be outclassed.

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gruyere
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar   Mon Apr 20 2015, 19:12

Regarding the bike lists, we really do need to run ignores cover. Venoms volume of shots does end up effective, but honestly these bike lists can get way worse. My friend runs a full bike list with warlocks supporting each of his bike squads, rolling for invis or shrouding whenever possible. We have no way to fight psychic powers, no way to innately fight jink so honestly allying in dark reapers is probably necessary. I used to use a wave serpent but with that gone, theres not much else. 2+ cover saves and scatter lasers is going to be a nightmare. Yes you can spend your innate warp charges to deny the powers, but the cost is too low for it to matter.

I don't think we need to worry about wraithguard as much because they are slow as balls and eldar dont have open topped vehicles, if anything we benefit more now from being able to use D weapons on an allied force.
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