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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Mon Apr 20 2015, 12:53

You also need to bear in mind that the powerlevel of a codex in terms of destructiveness needs to be appropriate to the scale of the game you're aiming for.

What i mean is that clearly GW are aiming for a game that takes between 5-7 turns to complete - no-one wants to design a game with mission that are achieved over that timescale only to design armies that table their opponents within 2-3 turns.

So the reasons why I wouldn't want a codex (all codices) to be at that level are that
1. I actually want some of my models to survive the game, though I accept they won't all achieve this.
2. The most fun games I have are those that are still in the balance on turns 5, 6 and 7 (and hence why I'm not a fan of maelstrom, since with random luck instead of playing the odds you can be out of sight or miles behind by then) so I actually want my opponent to be able to challenge me on those turns too.
3. Dialling all the codices up to these sorts of power levels would result in less fun, whereas all the books at DE levels of power would tend to mean games in the balance at the end of 5-7 turns

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Mon Apr 20 2015, 14:10

The biggest problem is Inner balancing of Books and also one book to another..

I always point out, Nids... they are the most unbalanced book in 40k.

You have VERY over costed MC's and units that dont even work at all but then you have a few units that are EXTREMELY out in left field...

Mucolid - 15pt Troop with: DS, Shroud, when assualts At I10, it is a S8, ap4 Large Blast
Malecptor - 205 pts, 4+ save... Lv 2 witha witchfire attack thats Warp Charge 2 with a BS of 3....

Over half the nids book is consider completely trash in 6ed and 7ed.

Then you look at the Necrons book with 50pt MC and 40pts Melee 3++/4+ and look at Warriors and carnifex's.... you wonder.. wtf?

Or now... Eldar, for 27pts. You get a Bike with 4 s6 shots, 3+ with Jink and all the Bikes rules... or a 300pt GMC with D weapons all over. whats more fear, a Wraithknight or a Swarmlord?.. no questions.... EVERY time a swarlord is played even if its not being target... it will never make up for losing a dakka flyrant for less points.

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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Mon Apr 20 2015, 18:51

Yes there obvious problems with the new codex. The problem units in the Eldar codex are numerous, and have very few real drawbacks. And there's no issue with spamming the hell out of them because they don't have limitations . Scatterbikes can handle anything that isn't AV13 or 14 while scoring the objectives the entire time, while Strength D Scythes are good against everything and a ranged D Wk is nasty. They do have poor LD though and the bikes are not that tough to take down. Beating Eldar will be a matter of board control and target prioritization and playing to the objective. It will be an overbalnced matchup for some armies to beat. We know that. But Eldar are not unbeatable - it will just take the right codex and the right units to do it. Unfortunately DE is not the codex that matches up well. We would need to tailor lists - freakshow leadership shenanigans with psychic shriek ally. But we could do it.

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Finn
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Thu Apr 23 2015, 19:49

I honestly feel that we are not in such a bad place to fight our craftworld cousins after all. Others have it worse. Serpentspam got nerfed (this build always hurt me most) and we can deal with the rest just fine, with the exception of wraithknights. We will die to destroyer weapons just as easily as to any other weapon in the game.

MSU is the key. And we don't even need to field expensive units and OP combos. Not that we have any Very Happy

The new Eldar release is actually going to make us stronger - their abundance of D weaponry will be discouraging for other players to bring deathstars, knights and vehicles to the table, leaving plenty of poison-fodder for our troops. I'm talking tournament play, of course.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Mon Apr 27 2015, 13:36

Also with less Wave Serpents, we may consider taking less lances.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Mon Apr 27 2015, 14:23

PainReaver wrote:
Also with less Wave Serpents, we may consider taking less lances.

That's just crazy talk... You can never have enough lances

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Mon Apr 27 2015, 14:33

We will still need the lances to deal with the WK or to force the WG to footslog as soon as possible.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Mon Apr 27 2015, 20:23

I think scatter laser or cannon jetbikes are just as bad as serpents. Sorry, but weather it was 6 str 7 ignore cover hits or 30 str 6 hits, the vehicle still goes away, and more likely to explode with the greater volume of hits.

We got weaker against our Eldar cousins, and I did not think it was possible.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Tue Apr 28 2015, 03:23

Massaen wrote:
PainReaver wrote:
Also with less Wave Serpents, we may consider taking less lances.

That's just crazy talk... You can never have enough lances

Of course lances in some places are good. Reavers, Ravagers, and Trueborns are best lance platforms. I feel that on the other hand, Raiders can do more with dissies, and likewise Razorwings.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Tue Apr 28 2015, 12:26

I prefer to take DL on my Razorwing...even more so with the new Eldar codex. A hard counter for a jetbike heavy list is a triple heldrake list. I'm pretty sure we're going to see more of these and I need the DL's to prevent them from toasting my units.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Tue Apr 28 2015, 12:42

I read somewhere that the distortion weapons carried by wraith guards isn't a normal destroyer weapon. Something about getting a -1 on the effect chart. Is that true?

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Tue Apr 28 2015, 12:47

CptMetal wrote:
I read somewhere that the distortion weapons carried by wraith guards isn't a normal destroyer weapon. Something about getting a -1 on the effect chart. Is that true?

The rumours had them counting as S4 for instant death purposes and a -1 to the destroyer chart yes, but it was implied (not stated explicitly) that this was the d-scythes rather than all of them. Don't have the new codex so can't comment unfortunately

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Tue Apr 28 2015, 13:10

-1 is for the flamers only.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Tue Apr 28 2015, 14:46

Vasara wrote:
-1 is for the flamers only.

I think it's also the Hemlock's heavy d-scythes but not 100% on that.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Tue Apr 28 2015, 14:51

Yup - the D-Scythes (both variants) are -1 on the chart. The others are standard

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Wed Apr 29 2015, 10:56

It is for Hemlocks too. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Wed Apr 29 2015, 11:18

So it's not that bad. I'm not that afraid to be shot by those flame versions. At least not more than before. Still get my jink save. And the other destroyer weapon isn't an automatic penetration anymore. Which is nice.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Wed Apr 29 2015, 11:19

CptMetal wrote:
So it's not that bad. I'm not that afraid to be shot by those flame versions. At least not more than before. Still get my jink save. And the other destroyer weapon isn't an automatic penetration anymore. Which is nice.

You get Jink against the Heavy D-Scythes (Hemlocks) but not the Wraithguard version, as they're template weapons, ie Ignore Cover.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Wed Apr 29 2015, 11:40

You can easily field stuff like this and take out Knights and WKs without using your own:

PRIMARY CAD

2x Autarch: skyrunner, fusion, mandiblasters, banshee mask

2x 5 Jet bikes: shuriken cannons
4x 5 Jet bikes: scatterlasers

2x Hemlock: heavy d-scythes, mindshock pods

CRIMSON DEATH

1x Crimson Hunter Exarch: starcannons, pulse laser
2x Crimson Hunter: brightlances, pulse laser

This list has no LoWs and only two detachments to ensure that it is tournament legal most venues. The list pumps out a slew of AP2 shots plus the psychic shrieks. I've 2 Hemlocks and 12 S8 Ap2/1 shots plus all the S6 Ap2 and a Psychic Shriek or two when my flyers arrive. I could take down IKs and WKs (possibly even two in one turn). And the boys arrive turn two.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Fri May 01 2015, 08:44

egorey wrote:
You can easily field stuff like this and take out Knights and WKs without using your own:

PRIMARY CAD

2x Autarch: skyrunner, fusion, mandiblasters, banshee mask

2x 5 Jet bikes: shuriken cannons
4x 5 Jet bikes: scatterlasers

2x Hemlock: heavy d-scythes, mindshock pods

CRIMSON DEATH

1x Crimson Hunter Exarch: starcannons, pulse laser
2x Crimson Hunter: brightlances, pulse laser

This list has no LoWs and only two detachments to ensure that it is tournament legal most venues. The list pumps out a slew of AP2 shots plus the psychic shrieks. I've 2 Hemlocks and 12 S8 Ap2/1 shots plus all the S6 Ap2 and a Psychic Shriek or two when my flyers arrive. I could take down IKs and WKs (possibly even two in one turn). And the boys arrive turn two.

This is the grim irony of our time: The only really good counter to Eldar cheese is Eldar cheese. Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Mon May 04 2015, 08:28

I played with new Eldar last weekend and had 3 D cannon Vaul's battery and 2 Hemlocks. That -1 modifier to D is big nerf. And it's good. I managed to kill in Hammer & Anvil deployment a bastion and one Chrisis suit with D weapons. I even had inflitrait for cannons from Strategic table.

In the end I killed TAU with 12 reavers and 2 Skyrunner farseers that had fortune (and occational invisibility from Hemlock)

Bikes having 36 range and assault move really kills TAU.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Mon May 04 2015, 09:08

Quote :
That -1 modifier to D is big nerf.

It really is not if you choose to go for the right targets.
Infantry of any kind is a big NO. Go for vehicles. The Hemlock has good chances to even kill a Landraider while still causing 4 dead marines on average in the PSI phase.

The Heavy D-Scythe was S4 before, so you would have needed at least a 3+ to wound anyways (that is if you went for IG) and many targets where out of question (vehicles, Nurgle Bikers,...).
Now everything on 3+ gets a wound causing D3 wounds or a pen with D3 hullpoints.
Not sure how this is a nerf.
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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Mon May 04 2015, 10:12

Nerf to normal D. There were not many vehicles in a TAU list. H&A meant that I need to fly 2 turns before getting range to his Skyrays. And even then he always gets cover saves.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Fri Jun 05 2015, 13:39

D Cannon Vaul's can be problematic. There is a player around here who fields a full battwery with warlock and maugan ra. It sits in a spot within 24" of three objectives usually (you get to place three). You essentially create a zone 48" across that your opponent would rather avoid. In maelstrom this is huge. I have yet to beat the list. You can try and shoot down the battery but you don't want to assault it. That means getting within that 24". And maugan ra is no slouh in cc either and overwatch from his shrieker is nasty.

This is the thing about the new eldar codex. It is not 'gimmicky' in the true sense. It has some uber strong combos that are relatively inexpensive (the above is fairly cheap for the damage and prescence it has on the table top). So you are not relying on 'gimmicks' because there is room in lists for plenty of extra units when you take something like d-weapon vaul's.

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PostSubject: Re: Eldar coming   Fri Jun 05 2015, 18:54

Adeptus Mechanicus is on the same level as Eldar. Played in a tournament last week and he steam rolled 2 really good eldar players (they had 2 wraith knights) and one Tau player. He didnt win his last game because he pulled bad cards the whole game and lost.

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