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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Thu Apr 02 2015, 11:29

Hello fellow Archons,
I have a question for you. How do you use your Ravager? What weapons do you use? I own one with lances but I think I'll be buying another one without them. More dice give me a better chance to shoot at flying things and I can use it to fight light vehicles like ork ones. What do you think?
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Thu Apr 02 2015, 12:27

The Disintegrator is a nice anti-marine weapon, but most people tend to favour the anti-tank Dark Lance.
My Ravager is magnetized, to switch between weapons depending on what I'm going to face. If my opponent brings an infantry horde, or just a lot of MEQs, with few or just lightly armord vehicles, I'm taking two Disintegrators and one Dark Lance. If I'm up against many tanks or monstrous creatures, I'm taking three Dark Lances.

The Ravager does not work well against fliers with either weapon though. The Razorwings is our best anti-air unit. Or, if you're not playing a Realspace Raiders list, you could bring an Aegis Defense Line with a Quadgun or Icarus Lascannon.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Thu Apr 02 2015, 12:34

@Rokuro wrote:
The Razorwings is our best anti-air unit.

Which isn't saying much!

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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Thu Apr 02 2015, 12:40

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Rokuro wrote:
The Razorwings is our best anti-air unit.

Which isn't saying much!

True that. Sad
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Thu Apr 02 2015, 16:40

I take 2x triple DL Ravagers and 1x Dissie Ravager in pretty much every game over 1000points. The Dissies never fail to impress.
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jbwms713
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Fri Apr 03 2015, 13:40

The Dissies, I think, are often under-rated. They actually have a better chance of damaging AV10 than a Lance, and then have the utility of being pretty decent anti-infantry... the problem is that they can't touch AV12+ at all.

So, in the end, it really depends on what's in your list, and what you need. I tend to load up on Lances because a single lance is pretty "meh", but a ton of them will get the job done. As I look at other options, though, my weapon selections may move around a bit.
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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Fri Apr 03 2015, 20:00

I've always used Dissies seeing as I tend to come against Power Armoured foes. It's always a shock to them when you can melt their relatively expensive units so quickly.

I have only ever had luck once with a DE lance weapon, which I put purely to luck seeing as Brightlances in my Eldar force always seem to make an impact. This superstition is also another reason why I don't use them. I tend to seek my AT elsewhere

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Fri Apr 03 2015, 20:54

Where do you get your anti tank? Not in the codex?
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Fri Apr 03 2015, 23:43

Spam lances then sprinkle in disintegrators to taste. I've grown accustomed to running two triple lance Ravagers and one triple disintegrator one, and the triple lance ones do alright between them. The disintegrator one is the one that gets them running for the hills when the plethora of lances in the army has got them out of their transports Twisted Evil

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Sat Apr 04 2015, 02:55

@CptMetal wrote:
Where do you get your anti tank? Not in the codex?

Not in the DE main one, lol. I use supplement Grots or Fire Dragons.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Sun Apr 05 2015, 01:34

@Jimsolo wrote:
I use supplement Grots
lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Tue May 05 2015, 09:01

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Rokuro wrote:
The Razorwings is our best anti-air unit.

Which isn't saying much!

You really gotta wonder why they didn't include some kind of AA power for the army. Was the razorwing supposed to get AA missiles itself?

Imagine that, a specialised AA razorwing.

'Skysplitter missile'
May only be mounted on razorwing fighters.
Each missile counts as twin-linked.
Gains +D3 for armour penetration against flyers. (not flying monstrous creatures or skimmers doing 'counts as flying' like those SM gunship things).

S7, Ap3, 60" range. One use per missile only. Max 4 per razorwing.
May not be fired at ground targets.
+5 pt per missile.

And since a lot of codex reviewers including the podcast guys here on TDC say that voidraven is overpriced make the same kind of thing but the other way around.

'Butterscotch cuddle'
May only be mounted on Voidravens.
Each missile counts as Twinlinked
Small blast, gains armourbane against Tank, superheavy and fortifications.
S9, Ap1, 60" range. one use per missile only, max 2 (two) per void raven.
May not be fired at flyers, or any airborne model (flying MC actually flying).
Gains +1 BS when fired at a target within 18" of a friendly character.
+20pts per missile.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Tue May 05 2015, 09:15

For Anti Air, Voidraven is the best. Simply put, it has the same odds of hitting, but better chance of damaging.

I have used both, personally I would say bring 2 Lance and then add a third Diss. Simply put when I bring Ravagers I use them for pretty much everything. What I mean is, Diss Ravager's are really pushing it to hurt T7 and cannot touch T8. True they can pop Rhinos and maybe something else, but really I see AV 12+. So I bring lances. Now, one thing I love about Lances....They dominate Grey Knight Paladins. Not to mention anything with multiple wounds. That and it makes Necron's take 5+ Reanimation, not saying you should go hunting warriors with them but if push comes to shove.

While true they don't hit and wound as often as you like, when the Dark Lances do wound, the usually kill what they hit. I just had a 3 Lance Ravager kill a Crisis Battle Suit team of two, by itself.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Tue May 05 2015, 09:37

@JackKnife01 wrote:
While true they don't hit and wound as often as you like, when the Dark Lances do wound, the usually kill what they hit. I just had a 3 Lance Ravager kill a Crisis Battle Suit team of two, by itself.

Not really a good example of Lance being better than Disintegrator. The lance Ravager, on average, does 1.67 unsaved wounds to a Crisis Team not in cover. The Disintegrator version does 4 unsaved wounds against the same target. Even against a Riptide the Disintegrators are better (2 wounds vs the same 1.67 before cover/invulnerable saves).

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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Tue May 05 2015, 09:43

My statement was, when they do wound they do a lot more. Allow me to clarify.

A Str 8 weapon wounds easier and can double tough out a model easily and can actually hurt WraithKnights. Diss cannons cannot. My own example with the Crisis suits was just something I was using to state that they can double tough out models and something I found quite nice. Now yes they get cover/invul.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Tue May 05 2015, 10:07

Disintegrators actually can wound Wraithknights, requiring a 6 to do so and therefore does exactly the same amount of unsaved wounds as a Dark Lance on average.

Similarly, against Necron Warriors with a 4+ RP roll, the Disintegrators are superior to the Dark Lances (2 dead vs 1.11).

Dark Lances do have their uses but rate of fire usually wins out against lower frequency higher power shots.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Tue May 05 2015, 10:18

Actually on Warriors they break dead even. You have a 66% chance of hitting. That means out of every 3 shots two hit. So 3 shots for the Diss means 2 hits. Then need 3s to wound, meaning that out of 2 shots you have 66% chance of wound, let us say it wounds. Then you have 50% chance of them standing up, okay so 1 guy stays dead. Now Dark Lance, makes their Get back up moves 5+. So double out, you probably hit, again dice game. Then you have to wound on 2's, 87% chance of that, then they have a 33% chance of standing up, so one wound. Generally on average, when you hit something with a dark lance it stays down should it be killed. Versus Diss cannons, where yes more shots more dead, but higher chance of them standing right back up.

I will state one more thing, FnP on MEQ does not go off with a Dark Lance while it does with a Diss Cannon. I will also admit, I was wrong on the Str 5 to Tough 8. I was wrong thought it was not able to. That is str 4, my mistake.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Tue May 05 2015, 10:28

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Disintegrators actually can wound Wraithknights, requiring a 6 to do so and therefore does exactly the same amount of unsaved wounds as a Dark Lance on average.

Similarly, against Necron Warriors with a 4+ RP roll, the Disintegrators are superior to the Dark Lances (2 dead vs 1.11).

Dark Lances do have their uses but rate of fire usually wins out against lower frequency higher power shots.

Particularly in situations where the AP of the weapon is the same - Dissies would probably struggle if they were only AP4.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Tue May 05 2015, 10:32

This is true, they struggle, as I see it, when it comes FnP with toughness factors under 5 comes into play as well. That and RmP for Necrons on the models T4 and lower. Other wise they are really great weapons. I just prefer Dark Lances for armor popping.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Tue May 05 2015, 10:40

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
Disintegrators actually can wound Wraithknights, requiring a 6 to do so and therefore does exactly the same amount of unsaved wounds as a Dark Lance on average.

Similarly, against Necron Warriors with a 4+ RP roll, the Disintegrators are superior to the Dark Lances (2 dead vs 1.11).

Dark Lances do have their uses but rate of fire usually wins out against lower frequency higher power shots.

Particularly in situations where the AP of the weapon is the same - Dissies would probably struggle if they were only AP4.

There would be very little reason to take them at AP4.

@JackKnife01 wrote:
Actually on Warriors they break dead even.

Mathhammer makes it 2 (permanently) dead Necrons from a Disintegrator Ravager vs 1.11 from a Dark Lance Ravager.
9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 dead
3 shots, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, 1.11 dead

Against non-vehicles, IMO, Disintegrators are superior unless you are facing a lot of T4, multi-wound models with FNP.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Tue May 05 2015, 10:42

Here is where the math hammer differed since I was comparing one gun to another not the outlying 3 to 3, then volley of shots like you said mattered. If you noticed I did only put 3 shots instead of 9. Also how are you getting 1 dead out of 1.67 wounds, would you not round up and thus have 2 dead as well?
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Tue May 05 2015, 10:46

The maths is the same if you count one of each type of weapon rather than 3, you just kill 1/3 as many. And with mathhammer I use the actual numbers rather than rounding up or down as if you just round everything then two weapons can look identical from a distance, as this example perfectly demonstrates. With rounding, the lance and dissie look identical vs Necrons, whereas the dissie is nearly twice as good statistically.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Tue May 05 2015, 10:54

And statistically speaking you are correct in terms of infantry and light armor killing. My standpoint is that Dark Lances can be used on all things not just 3/4 of what you will be facing. If it is armor 12 or has something that gives it armor 12+ you can shoot all nine shots if you want it still does nothing. Where as, Dark Lances can kill 4/4 (Low and High Toughness and Low and High Armor). Do I like diss cannons? Yes. Do I think Dark Lances do everything better, not always, but they can hit everything.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Tue May 05 2015, 20:26

@Hellstrom wrote:
I take 2x triple DL Ravagers and 1x Dissie Ravager in pretty much every game over 1000points.  The Dissies never fail to impress.

I too normally include a dissie ravager in my list as well. It's not uncommon for the opponent to prioritise my darklance units first which can occasionally present their juicy rear armour 10. Most of my raiders remain un-upgraded as well and I have been tempted to run my tantalus before just for the hilarity of it. In a 2500 pt game I would definitely run a tantalus instead of dissie ravager and probably run 2x more razorwings with darklances.

The thing about disintegrators as pointed out in passing here is that they do have a flexible engagement profile. They can surprise opponents using infantry based anti-tank, forcing spacemarines especially to rely on 5+ or 6+ cover instead of 3+ armour and sometimes the rare privilege of gunning down things like thunderwolves. My favourite use for the dissie ravager remains at killing flyers and walkers however, getting rear armour shots means you can probably strip at least 2 HP from a walker and put 1 or 2 HP on a flyer.

It's kind of like the starcannon argument. I haven't had a chance to look at the new-new codex yet but I do remember them being S6 ap2 which means they can really surprise you with how much pain they can lay down on things like land speeders, thunderwolves or flyers. Especially where twinlinking is available.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager lance vs Disintegrator   Thu May 07 2015, 09:41

For completeness sake I have recently started mixing my Ravagers.
We played a small 1000 point tournament here recently where I was short on points and only upgraded 2 weapons to lances. I found that a Ravager with 3 lances or 3 disintegrators is inclined to only move 6" so that it can shoot all three guns and this lead to my ravagers being 'caught' more often. But with the mixed weapons they could move 12", fire at near full capacity every turn and they had a little more versatility.
For example I could shoot 2 lances at a vehicle, or a disintegrator and a single lance at infantry. and it helps avoid situations where you shoot 3 lances at ork boys simply because there were no vehicle targets.

Of course if you don't need to move 12 you are sacrificing a lance shot but I didn't regret it as much as I expected I would.
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