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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sat Apr 18 2015, 15:43

What will you be doing against the wraith Knight? It has fnp, T8 and 5W. Only 300 points!
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sat Apr 18 2015, 16:57

I think the first thing I will do with the new codex is the following:

Give my DE Codex + Coven to my friend and ask him to build the meanest and most evil army he can imagine for 2k points.
Then I will get my Eldar Codex and make up a random numbers generator which tells me which units to pick for 1750 points.

After that I will take bets if I table him 3rd or 4th round.
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urden93
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sat Apr 18 2015, 17:36

@CptMetal wrote:
What will you be doing against the wraith Knight? It has fnp, T8 and 5W. Only 300 points!
lost a wound? it had 6 if i recall (have one fielded only once), well poison unfortunatelly is not an option now :/ would try spamming lances on it but if i remember well GC gets FNP so idk, anyways i personally dont play with LoWs untill all faction has at least one
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sat Apr 18 2015, 23:12

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Think about the wider meta though. With that much S6 on the table, AV10 is just going to disappear - either by being annihilated turn one or simply by not being taken in the first place. Remind me what AV most of our vehicles are? Venoms just died.

I think that still kinda better then mass of Wave Serpents, way better. At least we can hurt them in return and more importantly, hurt them turn one right away with everything we got. If i remember correctly Scatter Lasers is 24", meaning 36" threat range, meaning they can be outdeployed.

Less Range, same or more firepower, way less defense comparing to WS spam. Well, let them pump more points to Windriders.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sat Apr 18 2015, 23:17

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If i remember correctly Scatter Lasers is 24"

Scatter Laser is 36"
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 10:02

lance spam is the answer to Wknights...

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 10:10

You need around 24 lance shots to kill a Wknight that is not in cover or does not use a configuration with shield.
That is around 8 Ravagers (1000 points). For that amount of points you get 3 (!) Wraithknights and have still points to spare for a Farseer.
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 10:31

24 lances is fine for my list. Also - to field that many Wknights, you cant meet the warhost detachment requirements...

If they take the shield variant I will be very happy! no ranged or CCW D to worry about!

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 10:38

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no ranged or CCW D to worry about!

Stomp is still "D"

Quote :
to field that many Wknights, you cant meet the warhost detachment requirements...

With ease... depending on how many Warlocks you need for a conclave, you get 4 or 5 WKnights in 1850 points.
Required to field up to 12 WKnights are:
1 Farseer
1 Warlock Conclave
3 units of windrider (3 min per unit)
1 Vyper Squadron (1 min per squadron)

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 11:01

Quote :
That is around 8 Ravagers (1000 points).
Yeah, sure, we count Lance Shots with amount of Ravagers...
Whats with Doom and Gloom Klaivex? Think we wont beat em?

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 11:04

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Yeah, sure, we count Lance Shots with amount of Ravagers...

Give me cheaper 24 lances, I'm curious
Quote :

Think we wont beat em?

Not only that we won't beat them, I would even bet I could make a random Eldar army AND give the DE player another 250 points and still table him Wink
And actually... I will try this and post results once I have the codex.

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 11:35

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Give me cheaper 24 lances, I'm curious
We dont have option of taking cheaper lances, we have to take a coherent and working army you know. 8 Ravagers sure aint that.

Quote :
Not only that we won't beat them, I would even bet I could make a random Eldar army AND give the DE player another 250 points and still table him Wink
And actually... I will try this and post results once I have the codex.
Go ahead.

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 12:13

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
You need around 24 lance shots to kill a Wknight that is not in cover or does not use a configuration with shield.

I believe it's 27 shots (so 9 Ravagers).

If it has a 5++, then you're looking at 40 lance shots.

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
Give me cheaper 24 lances, I'm curious
We dont have option of taking cheaper lances, we have to take a coherent and working army you know. 8 Ravagers sure aint that.
Go ahead.

So what do you suggest instead? Poison?

It takes 243 poison shots to down a WK. I think even we will struggle with that (not to mention the damage we'll take in the meantime).

@Azdrubael wrote:

Whats with Doom and Gloom Klaivex? Think we wont beat em?

Honestly, it's optimism that confuses me more. People watch as Eldar get a metric ton of buffs - including D-weapons on standard units, an already hard-to-kill creature being made basically immune to most of our weapons (for a negligible price increase), and their bikes being able to put out more long-range firepower than virtually anything else in the game (in addition to outstanding mobility), and seem to think we'll be fine.

Please enlighten me as to what we have to look forward to when facing the new Eldar, because the only silver lining I'm seeing is another 12 units of scatter-laser jetbikes on the horizon.
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 12:51

Have you stopped to consider the monetary value of so many jet bikes? They are hardly cheap new and the price second hand will go up for sure thanks to demand. 40 jet bikes with 4 warlocks would cost me well over $1k retail and that's about 1000 points...

I don't think the doom and gloom builds everyone is so worried about are a real threat - to me they look like hypothetical lists that you will see once in an edition at a random tourney. The time money and dedication to get that many bikes on the table is just ridiculous.

As for the wraith units - it only the 36" dual D cannons on the WK that worry me. And even then - how is 2 dweapon shots different to 2 shots at S10, Ap2 really? Our vehicles die to both just about the same!

Flesh bane weapons (which ideally cause ID) are our best bet against the WK now

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 12:58

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Have you stopped to consider the monetary value of so many jet bikes? They are hardly cheap new and the price second hand will go up for sure thanks to demand. 40 jet bikes with 4 warlocks would cost me well over $1k retail and that's about 1000 points...

I got around 30k of Eldar (most of them painted). that beeing said I started playing in 2nd edition.
I need ZERO of the new bikes. (maybe 1 or 2 boxes because of the new style) and can easily field 32 of them... together with 8 Warlocks and 2 Farssers on bike (converted from spare Metal Farseers and Warlocks, Jetbikes and some BFG Eldar Ships) as well as an autarch and 18 Shining Spears.
I could even go on and refit all of them with Scatter/Cannons.
Not a big deal.
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 13:11

@Massaen wrote:
Have you stopped to consider the monetary value of so many jet bikes? They are hardly cheap new and the price second hand will go up for sure thanks to demand. 40 jet bikes with 4 warlocks would cost me well over $1k retail and that's about 1000 points...

Oh, wonderful, I love it even more when games are Pay-to-win. That just makes everything soooo much better. Rolling Eyes

@Massaen wrote:

As for the wraith units - it only the 36" dual D cannons on the WK that worry me. And even then - how is 2 dweapon shots different to 2 shots at S10, Ap2 really? Our vehicles die to both just about the same!

The difference is that, before, we could at least retaliate. Now, our poison weapons are worthless against them, and our Darklight weapons are barely better.

@Massaen wrote:

Flesh bane weapons (which ideally cause ID) are our best bet against the WK now

What Fleshbane weapons?

The only one I can think of is the Ichor Injector, and expecting Talos to not only survive against a plethora of D-weapons, but also get into combat with a model that moves twice as fast, seems like a dicey strategy. I guess there's Urien, but he doesn't even ignore the WK's 3+ armour save? And, even then, there's only going to be one of him - whereas an Eldar player can easily have 2-3 WKs.

What's worse, even if you do get ID, you're still only removing 1/3 of the WK's wounds (on average).

I think any solution will require us to spend several times the WK's point cost to remove it.
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 13:29

I have a metric tonne of eldar myself from a phantom Titan, multiple revenants and flyers to hordes of guardians and more grab tanks than I own venoms... And I run venom spam!

I don't have to buy anything either - my days in rogue trader till today mean this is a cheap release for me.

But my point on this is that we are anomalies and the majority of players don't have access to that type of collection. It will be a significant investment in cash and time for most people to run the silly bike list. You and I still have to convert the bikes weapons to be wysiwyg so it's still work for even us!

I could have sworn we had flesh bane in the coven units... Must be mistaken.

Assuming the WK does not take the sword, tie it up in combat? Did wyches just get a purpose?!?

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 13:48

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Assuming the WK does not take the sword, tie it up in combat? Did wyches just get a purpose?!?

May I introduce you to "Stomp" ?
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 13:54

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
Assuming the WK does not take the sword, tie it up in combat? Did wyches just get a purpose?!?

May I introduce you to "Stomp" ?

Indeed.

An Eldar player tried to lock my Revenant in combat with a current Wraithknight, and I stomped it to hell.
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 16:06

No point in arguing that dark eldar can or can't beat eldar.
It would be more constructive to figure out how to deal with the new eldar.

Eldar are a good counter to dark eldar.  

Just play to the mission and try and out think your opponent. It'll be tough for DE, but they can put up a good fight. Use terrain.  Maybe a Deep Strike army will be a good idea to get the hit on the bikes/eldar instead of sitting across the table waiting to get shot. Talos/formation with ID fleshbane.


On a side note.

I also play Ulthwe eldar and am super excited for the new book.  Not because of the power level, but because the army book has been very well written. It is fluffy and everything seems useful just like the necron dex.
I am not a huge fan of D weapons, and I don't plan on using any. BUT D weapons are here to stay so thete is no point in bitching about them. Figure out how to deal with them instead. I may use them on occasion, but only after people realise that it isn't the end of the world and that the sky isn't falling.
I am most excited to try 3 deep striking falcons (that don't scatter) armed with Scannons a bright lances and pulse laser deep striking full of dire avengers from the formation that are bs5 and shoot 3 shots each for a turn. So that's 9 st8 shots, 9 st6 shots from the falcons and 54 bs5 shuriken shots from 18 avengers. Maybe one of these units will be replaced with a fire dragon unit? That sounds way more fun than d slapping. And pretty effective for around 600 points. Not amazing, but pretty good

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 16:20

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Just play to the mission and try and out think your opponent. It'll be tough for DE, but they can put up a good fight. Use terrain. Maybe a Deep Strike army will be a good idea to get the hit on the bikes/eldar instead of sitting across the table waiting to get shot. Talos/formation with ID fleshbane.

Eldar in general are more mobile, they learned to deepstrike too, WKnight just obliterates a Corpsethief Formation thanks to stomp and ID is not working on Gargantuans (its just D3 wounds)
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 17:26

Stomp only scares the claw on a 6 remember... Even wyches will get a save on 5 of the 6 results and if you space yourself well, it's only 2 templates on average you have to endure

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 17:32

@Massaen wrote:
Stomp only scares the claw on a 6 remember... Even wyches will get a save on 5 of the 6 results and if you space yourself well, it's only 2 templates on average you have to endure

Even so, that's 2 templates that wound you on 2s and ignore FNP. Invulnerable saves will only get you so far.

And, that's assuming those wyches are even allowed to get near it - as opposed to just being blown out of the air by massed S6.

With regard to the Claw... I just don't ever see it catching a WK, unless said WK actually wants to be in combat with them.
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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 18:04

Ossefactors have fleshbane.

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PostSubject: Re: New eldar codex next? - Wed. April 15 pics p2, Fri. April 17 pre-orders p4   Sun Apr 19 2015, 18:06

@Calyptra wrote:
Ossefactors have fleshbane.

That's very true. Perhaps even a legitimate use for Wracks.

For a mere 1040pts (not including transports), you can have enough Wrack squads with ossefactors to take down a WK.
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