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alexwellace
Kabalite Warrior


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PostSubject: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Mon Mar 30 2015, 11:01

Dark Eldar now have access to a myriad of ld debuffs, as i regularly take the Dark Artisan formation (-1 within 12), the Heroes Path (Mask of secrets, -2 within 12) and Armour of Misery (-2 within 6). In perfect conditions a unit will be at -5 ld, with the common ld being 8 that would put them on 3. So would this make you consider the phantasm grenade launcher? It can't hurt fearless or ATSKNF models, which is a lot of models, but in a TAC with incorporates so many Ld debuffs it seems silly to ignore something else that takes advantage of this.

Most champions can get one for 10pts, it has a respectable range of 18 and the small blast only has to hit a single model for the test to be taken. Raiders can get it for 15pts but at the greater range of 24 and it would alleviate the risk of being a flying terrain piece after a weapon destroyed result. They would put the hurt on a riptide, Daemons and even Necrons wouldn't be happy at ld 5. Just one question, can you use these to snipe around a fearless model in a unit or does he make the entire unit immune? Say does a priest in a unit make the unit immune to soulfright, or can we just not allocate wounds to him?

Or maybe your opinion is unchanged and they are garbage.
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Mon Mar 30 2015, 11:51

If you ad a Priest to a unit of imperial guard, the guardsmen would still take the wounds. It is just the priest himself who cannot have any wounds allocated to him.
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jbwms713
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Mon Mar 30 2015, 14:44

Re-reading the fearless/soul fright rules, I'd agree that only the Priest in that example would be actually immune to the wounds.

Having a fearless character in with a unit gives specific benefits, but does not strictly make the entire unit fearless.

In the end, it's a tactic that would certainly work on ... say... half of the armies out there. If you can get at least two of those neg sources vs your target(s), at least. I'd consider 9 to be the more common Ld you'll see, so at least a -3 to have a decent chance of causing *a* wound... and then, yeah... all of that for *a* wound? Sure, you can get lucky and clear a riptide with it, but that's incredibly unlikely.

It's probably best for clearing chaff units that would otherwise tie up any assault units you'd be taking. I dunno... I'd like to be wrong, but it just doesn't seem worth the effort to me.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Mon Mar 30 2015, 15:44

A champion might be able to take one for ten points, but then you're forced to take a champion in the first place, with their additional cost. If you're trying to make a competitive list, you probably aren't going to have many (if any) unit champions. So I wouldn't say it was a particularly competitive option in terms of points cost. However, from a fun perspective, if you're already running leadership modifying equipment, you might as well get one or two in the list. Preferably in one of the units that has the special wargear or rule in the first place, so you can guarantee it'll be more effective than just firing at a squad with full leadership and hoping to get lucky. Just don't get drawn into letting it dictate strategy - it's a potentially nasty surprise for your opponent, but not something you would ever want to rely on to work even once.

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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Mon Mar 30 2015, 19:43

@Mr Believer wrote:
A champion might be able to take one for ten points, but then you're forced to take a champion in the first place, with their additional cost.

Remember that you can also take them on vehicles.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Mon Mar 30 2015, 21:15

@Rokuro wrote:
@Mr Believer wrote:
A champion might be able to take one for ten points, but then you're forced to take a champion in the first place, with their additional cost.

Remember that you can also take them on vehicles.

Yeah, I only use the champion as the example because I was pointing out that the cheaper cost isn't as cheap as it seems :-) The vehicle mounted option is probably best with the increased range.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Tue Mar 31 2015, 00:23

I tend to run Dark Lances on my Raiders and Ravagers, so adding a terror grenade means I usually have to decide which weapon to use effectively each phase. The high number of models in the game that are immune to our grenade effects means I usually pass on them, UNLESS I have points to burn. And I run a Freakshow list, based primarily on exploiting these Ld shenanigans. Unfortunately, their quality-to-points ratio frequently places them in 'tertiary priority' territory.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Tue Mar 31 2015, 07:15

@Jimsolo wrote:
I tend to run Dark Lances on my Raiders and Ravagers, so adding a terror grenade means I usually have to decide which weapon to use effectively each phase.

Ravagers I can understand but Raiders can always fire both at full BS unless they go flat out. They're Fast vehicles.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Tue Mar 31 2015, 07:36

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
I tend to run Dark Lances on my Raiders and Ravagers, so adding a terror grenade means I usually have to decide which weapon to use effectively each phase.

Ravagers I can understand but Raiders can always fire both at full BS unless they go flat out. They're Fast vehicles.

I guess the issue is that Raiders most often go for a lance to tank hunt... and as the vehicle doesn't have split fire you waste one of the weapons.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Tue Mar 31 2015, 09:00

Ah yes, of course.

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Archon Rievect
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Wed Apr 01 2015, 17:35

I personally think the PGL is worthless now,was 100000% better and useful when I could give it to a warrior or wych,trueborn unit and they benefited from having the assault and defensive buffs...ie grenades when assaulting and enemy loses bonus attacks when charging... The current total redoe of its stats is garbage and useless against most armies.
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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Wed Apr 01 2015, 20:18

@Archon Rievect wrote:
I personally think the PGL is worthless now,was 100000% better and useful when I could give it to a warrior or wych,trueborn unit and they benefited from having the assault and defensive buffs...ie grenades when assaulting and enemy loses bonus attacks when charging... The current total redoe of its stats is garbage and useless against most armies.

It was kinda stable back then. But worthless... too loud word

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Wed Apr 01 2015, 21:26

I have never been using them in this edition.

What is that leadership modifying formation?
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Wed Apr 01 2015, 21:27

I wouldn't say it's worthless, but it is too difficult to justify in a TAC list due to the restricted application of its effect.

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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Wed Apr 01 2015, 21:58

I will be bringing 30 points worth, plus the armour of misery, to a tournament tomorrow. I expect a large majority of Tau opponents, and I hope they'll be doing something nice to riptides and broadsides alike. I haven't tested it, though, as I haven't got any local Tau opponents.
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jbwms713
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Fri Apr 03 2015, 13:43

The problem I see is that even with the Misery's -2, the Riptide-esque units (read: Ld 9) have a good chance of passing that test with no problem. And then they still get their Inv save, I *think*. And then maybe FnP.

Without its own penalty, or a 3d6 test, or something, it's just not likely to do much unless you go crazy on the modifiers.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Fri Apr 03 2015, 18:45

I tried them with harlequins, coven and eldar against imperial guard.
The list was pretty gimmick as I focussed everything on Ld but wow they went down fast...
-5 on Ld is no fun...
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Fri Apr 03 2015, 23:20

Dude, my list is almost entirely Ld debuff shenanigans, and it's incredibly effective against many armies.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Sat Apr 04 2015, 08:54

I'd like to see an army list for that, Jim.
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Mayk0l
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Sun Apr 05 2015, 12:36

So, Sigmaril, how did it work out in the tournament?
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Lord Mal
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Mon Apr 06 2015, 15:31

I'm also looking forward to hearing how it went.

To me, all the "fear bombing" is pretty cut and dry. Against certain opponents or lists, it seems like it could just wreck them double time, and against others, it becomes completely wasted points.

So the uses become: A) If you face opponents that you're having a tough time with, but their army is one of the susceptible ones B.) If you have a tournament where you know you'll be facing certain opponents at some point and you just want to plonk a certain amount of points into making these matchups easier.

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belligerentblythe
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Thu Apr 23 2015, 01:56

I know the discussion is about the PGL but I've had success against Tau in combination with the archangel of pain and the PGL on an archon. A succubus with the armor of misery. BS 7 on the archon makes the blast scattering almost nonexistent
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Thu Apr 23 2015, 05:47

The leadership based strategies you talk about have been my bread and butter since last December, and they've served me extremely well. If anyone is interested in more information (at least what I've gathered from my experiences), then I've started a series of tactica articles, which you can find here.
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mrbenis
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Mon May 04 2015, 09:19

@Jimsolo wrote:
Dude, my list is almost entirely Ld debuff shenanigans, and it's incredibly effective against many armies.  

Well that's right, and it's part of why I use shockprows on my raiders in order to let them tankshock and ram. It's a great thing to tankshock missile launcher/lascannon users off their perches or to ram a transport with AV14 (provided you move at least 18" for best effect) and then being that much more likely to pin the occupants.
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher?   Mon May 04 2015, 12:19

How do you move 18" and ram? Tank shock happens in the movement phase so you can't move more than 12"
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