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 What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Mon Mar 23 2015, 23:37

We play a vast and messy game. I contains rules that any two given people may not agree on, and more books and supplements than can be reasonably kept up to date on. Frequently we may end up across the table from a player using a Codex we've never seen, rules from obscure dataslates, or Forgeworld stuff, and in that situation, we basically have to just trust them.

But what about situations where there is an overall disagreement about a given rule that another player may not be aware of? So, for example, I have interpretations I believe to be reasoned and supported on how Webway Portals work, how many Diabolical Playthings I can take, and whether my Solitaire's Kiss works with his Caress. I know that other players have different interpretations which they also believe to be reasoned and supported, and that my opponent may have no idea that the debate on these rules is even happening.

My practice has usually been to inform my opponent of rules controversies in my army, to make sure we're on the same page before we start playing. I'm not sure I've ever seen someone else do this, and it does potentially add a lot of explanation and discussion before we can play the game. The alternative is to just use my interpretations for how things work, and only talk it through mid-game (or roll off for it) if my opponent both knows the rule and disagrees. This is certainly easier and faster, and seems to be what most people do, but when I do that I feel like I'm denying my opponent an opinion on something that shouldn't be subjective but is, or taking advantage of their ignorance, and I may make decisions in game based on the belief that a thing works one way, only to end up having to roll off for it at a crucial moment.

What do you guys think? Is it better to explain the controversies before the game, or just start playing and hope that your opponent either agrees with you or doesn't know any better? Is it reasonable to ask another player before a game if their army contains rules which are disagreed upon?

It isn't practical to study every codex (and their respective forums) in order to have an informed opinion about every rule. But what about a database of unclear rules? Does it exist somewhere, and if not, should it? That way I'll at least know to ask, for example, how many Chapter Relics that Space Marine Captain is carrying.

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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 01:52

I like to check online to get a broader idea of how the community thinks the rule should be played. If the majority of the community wants to do it one way, even if the rules CLEARLY don't support it (ICs getting into Battle Brother vehicles in the last edition, f'rex) I will just go along with it, just for the sake of sanity and convenience.

If there is a close split (65-35 or closer) I will ask TOs ahead of time for competitive events so I will not be surprised and so I can have a leg to stand on if an opponent disputes it. In friendly games, I explain the discrepancy to my opponent, ask them how they want to run it, and then play it however they think is reasonable. (Whether or not the prow of a raider counts as hull is the most frequent example of this in my army.)
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 02:53

This is a good query. I usually contact the TO at the point of list writing to get an official yes or no, as jimsolo has stated. If the way the tourney is run makes the particular impact on how effective my list may be, I might change units/items/etc.

If someone disagrees at game time, I can then direct them to the TO.
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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 15:15

I collect the rules that cause debates or rule book reading at games, and if rules are unclear (for example the question if jink affects passengers too) I like to talk about stuff like that beforehand, as that way it doesn't interrupt the gameplay.
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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 20:07

Dreddsock.

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 20:59

Thor665 wrote:
Dreddsock.

Is that the 40k version of sockjacking? (For those who don't know, "sockjacking" was a term used in Warmachine Mk 1 to describe a situation in which it becomes necessary to drop one's warjack (a dreadnought-sized metal model) into a tube sock in order to bludgeon one's opponent with it.) I think I've still got one or two lead dreads around here somewhere...

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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 23:26

No - sockjacking is the Warmachine equivalent of Dreddsocking.

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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Wed Mar 25 2015, 08:47

Thor665 wrote:
No - sockjacking is the Warmachine equivalent of Dreddsocking.

This. Warmachine started in what 2003? The 2nd-3rd edition pewter dreadnought has been around since 1994 (at least the chaos one has).



There were even uglier ones before that but that was before the dawn of plastic so it was just called <insert any pewter model>socking.

But yes functionally they are the same. Smile

It is clear to me now that Warmachine is becoming what it sort to destroy! *dramatic plot twist music*

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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Wed Mar 25 2015, 12:40

Ok. I was actively playing 40k for its first 3 editions and never heard the term, so I assume it was at least somewhat regional (this being before internet forums like we have now). Or maybe I just forgot.

...we're a little off topic.

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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Wed Mar 25 2015, 13:28

Calyptra wrote:
Ok. I was actively playing 40k for its first 3 editions and never heard the term, so I assume it was at least somewhat regional (this being before internet forums like we have now). Or maybe I just forgot.

Ahh the days before the internet and net-listing they were a beautiful time. Probably was a regional thing to be honest. Very Happy

On topic. I try to discuss/raise anything that might be an issue before the game. For example a classic one with my grey knights (that massively changes how they play) is are psykers limited to only casting the same number of powers as their mastery level. It's better in my experience to get it out of the way first so you can adapt your tactics accordingly.

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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Wed Mar 25 2015, 16:51

Mushkilla wrote:
For example a classic one with my grey knights (that massively changes how they play) is are psykers limited to only casting the same number of powers as their mastery level.
People debate that?

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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Wed Mar 25 2015, 17:30

Thor665 wrote:
Mushkilla wrote:
For example a classic one with my grey knights (that massively changes how they play) is are psykers limited to only casting the same number of powers as their mastery level.
People debate that?

Yes. The wording of that rule is sufficiently vague in this edition to cause confusion among some.
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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Wed Mar 25 2015, 19:12

An easy way to solve anything quickly is to roll a D6, where 1 2 3 is one side and 4 5 6 is the other.

Then you only get to argue who gets to be the 4+.
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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Thu Mar 26 2015, 00:32

Roll a D6

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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Thu Mar 26 2015, 00:37

Its_Rumble wrote:
Roll a D6
1-3, I'm right.
4-6, they're wrong
Cool
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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Sat Mar 28 2015, 02:20

nexs wrote:
Its_Rumble wrote:
Roll a D6
1-3, I'm right.
4-6, they're wrong
Cool

You can do that...or ask them to point it out in their book then stab them in the hand with a pencil.
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PostSubject: Re: What is (or should be) proper etiquette for controversial rules?   Sun Mar 29 2015, 12:32

I usually run it past my opponent while going through my list, clarifying any controversy and explaining how I usually play it (with my reasoning if it's unclear). If my opponent vehemently opposes my point of view and doesn't make a rubbish argument I'll usually let them have their way. If it's an issue where you could easily see it either way we'll usually roll off for it.

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