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 Protecting Ravagers against CC

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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Thu Mar 19 2015, 02:36

Greetings!

I have a problem- No matter where I put my Ravagers, they always end up getting assaulted. Eventually. Infiltraing scouts, Jump infantry, DS termies etc

In the old 'dex, I had started to equip my Ravagers with Torment Grenade Launchers. Hardly a guarantee, but better than just hoping opponent rolls 1s in assault.

So, is there any way to protect vehicles from CC in the new dex?
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Khordajj
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PostSubject: Re: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Thu Mar 19 2015, 06:03

If your opponent isn't assaulting the turn he arrives from reserves then I'm confused how your Ravagers are getting caught in cc. It would seem like your opponent would have to do something like deep strike multiple units around your Ravager so that its 36" movement wouldn't be enough to escape.

Are you always staying 36" away from your targets when you're firing your ravagers? Are you staying aware of other units' threat bubbles? Are you keeping auxiliary units near your ravagers to counter-assault?

Range, speed, and deployment is your only defense against assault. You should give us an example of the last game you played to better understand what's going on.
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Thu Mar 19 2015, 06:16

Last game?
Today, my opponent deployed hIs LR spartan on the flank, his spawn on the opposite flank, and a string of cultust units between the two. I deployed a pair of ravagers on the flank(in cover) across from the spartan, and all my venoms on the flank across from the spawn.
My venoms and raiders pushed up the flank, his spartan moved towards the ravagers, as well as a unit of cultists. The ravagers failed to prn the spartan(as did WWP blasterborn, raiders and razorwings). DS termies rapid plasma fired one ravager, whilst the spartan immobilised the other. Eventually the lord and cultists made it to the immob ravager, and punched it to death.

I know units can't assault from reserve, I'm talking more about situation where my ravagers are in the backfield, firing, and a unit is able to approach (DS nearby, scouts outflanking *not infiltrating) due to my ravagers firing at armour targets. It doesn't seem the most practical of ideas to just flat-out the ravager away and lose the shooting.
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Khordajj
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PostSubject: Re: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Thu Mar 19 2015, 06:31

@flakmonkey wrote:
It doesn't seem the most practical of ideas to just flat-out the ravager away and lose the shooting.
There's your answer then. If you've deployed and maneuvered well, then decide if you'd rather have a turn of shooting or stay alive. Neither answer is correct, it depends on the situation, but it would seem you know the answer the avoiding close combat, you just have assess whether it's worth it.
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Thu Mar 19 2015, 06:42

I was just a bit frustrated by watchin my ravager get slowly picked apart today.
A bit of a stupid question really.
Still, I might try using more fliers with DLs. Much harder to get assaulted in the air.
Cheers for talking it out

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Thu Mar 19 2015, 06:56

@flakmonkey wrote:
I was just a bit frustrated by watchin my ravager get slowly picked apart today.
A bit of a stupid question really.
Still, I might try using more fliers with DLs. Much harder to get assaulted in the air.
Cheers for talking it out

Maneouvrability is the key here, and not just with the ravagers. If your opponent is threatening through outflanking or deep strike then you have at least 1 turn to do something about it.

Do you take an assault unit in your list, grotesques for example?

Any of our assault units in raiders do not need to be aggressive early in the game, I almost never advance my grotesque raider for the first two turns, and keeping it near the ravagers means you've got a hard counter to many threats to their survival.

So they key methods of preventing your ravagers getting caught in combat are:
1. Move them out of the way - it might mean you need to forego a round of shooting, but you need to weigh that against the possibility of not getting any more shooting out of them.
2. Move something else into the way - quite a few assault units are strengthened (ok, all) by charging. If you charge the unit that's threatening the ravagers, it's highly unlikely you'll end up in a worse position (assuming you're not charging with a unit that's likely to get wiped out in a turn of course!) and will be able to get a turn's grace to move away without needing to hamper your shooting (much, you might need to go 12").

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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Thu Mar 19 2015, 07:00

I have had similar problems and I have tried a couple of things with varying degree of success.

I have found that the best protection against armies with infiltrators, fast jump units or outflankers is to have a 3 man reaver squad babysitting my backfield behind some LOS blocking terrain. They either countercharge or get in the way, blocking any would be chargers long enough for my ravagers to reposition. They might eliminate the threat or die, (wretchedly I might add), but if they keep a ravager floating one more turn, they are worth it in my book.
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Khordajj
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PostSubject: Re: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Thu Mar 19 2015, 07:01

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Any of our assault units in raiders do not need to be aggressive early in the game, I almost never advance my grotesque raider for the first two turns
Why is that?
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Thu Mar 19 2015, 12:19

@Khordajj wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Any of our assault units in raiders do not need to be aggressive early in the game, I almost never advance my grotesque raider for the first two turns
Why is that?

Because the raider has a 36" range weapon, and when I do want to get close enough to charge (ie once PfP is ramping up) then a 30" flat out move (36" with A/S) is plenty to get me where i want to be in a single turn to then assault the next turn. No point exposing yourself to incoming fire unnecessarily!

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@miral
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PostSubject: Re: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Thu Mar 19 2015, 12:36

I actually had the same problem against GK/Marines- my answer would also be reavers! Or even counte- inccubi.. worked ok for me, same price in min squad, but more specialised. Also, Grots and Inccubi need some backup transport. Holding Raiders back without reserving them is kind of risky, they are wrecked so easily...
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Its_Rumble
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PostSubject: Re: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Thu Mar 19 2015, 21:21

I generally always put aether sails on my ravagers and raiders as opposed to night shields. IF something is threatening my ravager or if something makes it jink instead of snap shooting I redeploy to change up the battlefield. Board control is better than trying to get off a luck DL shot or whatever. Remember you are super fast. If you need to spend your turn 3 moving your entire army to the other side of the board and don't do any shooting that is ok man. Remember you have 36 range on your ships which is generally way more than any other army. If you have a bunch of stuff DS onto your flank jet it over their flank and out range them. They have effectively taken those units out of the game for you and you can pick them off from the other side of the table. Learning when to shoot and when to move is an integral part of our army. It comes with games to be honest. I don't know how much you play and I am not trying to belittle you but once you play a couple hundred games and something happens you pretty already know either how to handle it or what is going to happen. When I play I generally know how the game is going to finish around the end of turn two.

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Khordajj
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PostSubject: Re: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Sun Mar 22 2015, 11:22

I actually just played a game against a friend that reminded me of this topic. We play on his 4x4 board at 1,000 points, and it can get very cramped very fast. He went first, and turn one his Maulerfiend and two Rhinos were already incredibly close to my army. It got to the point where the best solution was for the majority of my vehicles to avoid shooting altogether and flat out in different directions.

If I had stayed put, I might have done some damage, but dispersing my army not only kept those units alive, but also allowed them to shoot later on, score objectives, contest objectives, act as roadblocks and maybe most importantly, forced him to change his battle plan from an obvious one to one that was more complex -- allowing him to make more mistakes. One more round of shooting paled in comparison to what they were able to do turns later. Your vehicles are much more valuable than just shooting platforms.
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Dirtydeeds
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PostSubject: Re: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Fri Mar 27 2015, 01:20

It almost sounds like the game you had had more to do with the outcome of your dice rolls than your ability to protect your Ravagers.... If all of that Lance and haywire fire didn't bring down a single Land Raider, maybed it's time to buy a new cube and burn the old set...
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: Protecting Ravagers against CC   Fri Mar 27 2015, 21:00

I had another game (a weird 3 player game as 4th dude didn't show) Anyway, I used my Ravagers differently.
I was a bit more aggressive with their positioning, moved constantly, snap shot-ed and jinked. Or vice-versa.
I lost one, but that was to two units of Autocannon totting Havocs. Couldn't jink that much.
I agree that the vehicles are more valuable than just a static platform.

And on the dice, in my most recent game, with jinking and cover, I couldn't be touched.
However it took a Raider with DL and Trueborn with 3 blaster 2 turns to trash a Drop-pod.

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