HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in
Share | 
 

 Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?

Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Calyptra
Wych
avatar

Posts : 796
Join date : 2013-03-25
Location : Boston

PostSubject: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 04:43

I grudgingly gave up on splinter rack gunboats after I did some math and determined that they are not points-efficient compared to Venoms.

A Venom will cause four wounds, at a cost of 16.25 points per wound, with a threat range of 48". 10 Kabalites on a splinter racks Raider will probably cause four wounds with a threat range of 30", at 40 points/wound, or 8 wounds with a threat range of 18", at 20 points per wound. I am assuming the Raider has a dark lance, but I don't see those 5 points as skewing the numbers here too much; also, if you're doing this, you probably want night shields on that Raider, and I did not include those points in my math. Also, I consider the Raider to a better choice than a Venom in other circumstances and roles. All I am considering here is our most point-efficient way to gun down infantry, and looking at these numbers, I don't think Kabalites on Raiders are it.

But I just met my first flying hive tyrant, and it ate my army.

Are splinter rack gun boats our best way of dealing with flying monstrous creatures?

A Venom will probably only score a single wound, at 65 points/wound. The gunboat will inflict 2, now with a threat range of 36" (since the passengers are snap shooting anyway, there's no reason not to move 12") at 80 points/wound, and 5 at 24" for 32 points/wound.

Thoughts?

_________________
Dark Eldar plog: Drug-Crazed Space Elves
Stupid humans plog: Calyptra's Stupid Humans
Vampire Counts plog: Bat Country
Back to top Go down
nexs
Wych
avatar

Posts : 766
Join date : 2014-12-28

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 05:05

Other than a flier (probably razorwing, due to its lower cost), would 2 ravagers be more worthwhile?
Being that splinter shots still only AP5 and what you're really after is either the unlucky grounding or the AP2 hit to really ensure the wound goes through.
If you're going for a grounding roll, then a bunch of splinter fire would work, but you'd have to follow it around with a combat unit, investing even more points in killing it(i'm aware that you can shoot him after being grounded, but i'm assuming that most of the shooting would have been spent in actually scoring the unsaved wound needed to get it grounded).
A razorwing has the splinter fire and the lance fire to cover both.

That's just my thought process.
Back to top Go down
Jimsolo
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3064
Join date : 2013-10-31
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 05:45

Well, in either a CAD or Realspace Raiders detachment, you need two troops, and the Splinter Rack gunboats are a pretty good way to fill those out. My first competitive event after the new codex dropped saw two Nidzilla lists on my dance card, both of which I tabled by turn 3.

I've had them fail spectacularly before, but I chalk those failures up to poor decision making on my part. I don't think I'd take more than the mandatory troop slots (which I would have done last edition) but for those two selections, I think they bring a lot to the table.
Back to top Go down
Dirtydeeds
Hellion


Posts : 70
Join date : 2013-12-10

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 06:10

I think having both on the table, an easily achievable task, will handle hive tyrants. But the Gunboat will prove to be more durable with nightshields.
Back to top Go down
HERO
Wych
avatar

Posts : 778
Join date : 2012-04-13

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 06:24

Quote :
A Venom will probably only score a single wound, at 65 points/wound. The gunboat will inflict 2, now with a threat range of 36" (since the passengers are snap shooting anyway, there's no reason not to move 12") at 80 points/wound, and 5 at 24" for 32 points/wound.

How are you doing this math?

Venom - 12 shots, 6s to hit, 4s to wound, 3s to save (flyrant)
Raider - 18 shots (9 dudes inside, 1 with a Blaster, Splinter Racks), twin-linked 6s to hit, 4s to wound, 3s to save

And the guys inside can fire to full effect when Jinking, unlike the Venom. The points difference is +50 points per, but I think its well worth it.
Back to top Go down
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/
Creeping Darkness
Wych
avatar

Posts : 548
Join date : 2012-11-21

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 06:43

I make it 0.33 wounds per Venom (discounting any passengers) and 1.055 per gunboat (discounting the raider and assuming the tenth guy has a blaster).
Back to top Go down
http://thecreepingdarkness.blogspot.com
Calyptra
Wych
avatar

Posts : 796
Join date : 2013-03-25
Location : Boston

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 08:24

@HERO wrote:
Quote :
A Venom will probably only score a single wound, at 65 points/wound. The gunboat will inflict 2, now with a threat range of 36" (since the passengers are snap shooting anyway, there's no reason not to move 12") at 80 points/wound, and 5 at 24" for 32 points/wound.

How are you doing this math?

Venom - 12 shots, 6s to hit, 4s to wound, 3s to save (flyrant)
Raider - 18 shots (9 dudes inside, 1 with a Blaster, Splinter Racks), twin-linked 6s to hit, 4s to wound, 3s to save

And the guys inside can fire to full effect when Jinking, unlike the Venom.  The points difference is +50 points per, but I think its well worth it.

My math may be completely wrong. Looking at it again, some of it is definitely wrong, because I was attempting to multi-task when I wrote this and I've never pretended that I'm good at math. Embarassed

The venom gets 12 shots. 1 in 6 hit, so that's 2 hits, one of which will probably wound. Then the target rolls whatever saves.
The 10 guys with splinter rifles on the raider will get 1 (1.67) hit when not rapid firing, and then 1 more (1.5) hit for being twin-linked, so 2-3 hits, 1-2 wounds, and then they get their saves. When rapid firing, they get 20 shots, getting 3 (3.34) hits, and then 2-3 more (2.83) for being twin-linked, so 5-6 hits, 2-3 wounds.

Does that seem right?

_________________
Dark Eldar plog: Drug-Crazed Space Elves
Stupid humans plog: Calyptra's Stupid Humans
Vampire Counts plog: Bat Country
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 7141
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 09:58

@nexs wrote:
Other than a flier (probably razorwing, due to its lower cost), would 2 ravagers be more worthwhile?

It's the twin-linking that you're after here, so as to get as many hits as possible, although if you have AP2 you do at least force the opponent to consider jinking, whereas splinter fire will just go on armour saves.

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
ronin_cse
Slave
avatar

Posts : 23
Join date : 2015-03-12

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 14:36

@Calyptra wrote:
@HERO wrote:
Quote :
A Venom will probably only score a single wound, at 65 points/wound. The gunboat will inflict 2, now with a threat range of 36" (since the passengers are snap shooting anyway, there's no reason not to move 12") at 80 points/wound, and 5 at 24" for 32 points/wound.

How are you doing this math?

Venom - 12 shots, 6s to hit, 4s to wound, 3s to save (flyrant)
Raider - 18 shots (9 dudes inside, 1 with a Blaster, Splinter Racks), twin-linked 6s to hit, 4s to wound, 3s to save

And the guys inside can fire to full effect when Jinking, unlike the Venom.  The points difference is +50 points per, but I think its well worth it.

My math may be completely wrong. Looking at it again, some of it is definitely wrong, because I was attempting to multi-task when I wrote this and I've never pretended that I'm good at math. Embarassed

The venom gets 12 shots. 1 in 6 hit, so that's 2 hits, one of which will probably wound. Then the target rolls whatever saves.
The 10 guys with splinter rifles on the raider will get 1 (1.67) hit when not rapid firing, and then 1 more (1.5) hit for being twin-linked, so 2-3 hits, 1-2 wounds, and then they get their saves. When rapid firing, they get 20 shots, getting 3 (3.34) hits, and then 2-3 more (2.83) for being twin-linked, so 5-6 hits, 2-3 wounds.

Does that seem right?

Yeah: should get 6 hits at rapid fire range, 3 wounds, and then assuming a 3+ 1 should make it through. 0.5 should make it through if outside rapid fire range. That's if you have 10 in the boat. You lose 0.1 if you are taking a special weapon in the group and gain about that (less if rapid firing) if you take a splinter cannon.
Back to top Go down
nexs
Wych
avatar

Posts : 766
Join date : 2014-12-28

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 21:54

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@nexs wrote:
Other than a flier (probably razorwing, due to its lower cost), would 2 ravagers be more worthwhile?

It's the twin-linking that you're after here, so as to get as many hits as possible, although if you have AP2 you do at least force the opponent to consider jinking, whereas splinter fire will just go on armour saves.

That's true but twin linking snap shots still won't reliably give you a hit (well... neither will shooting at full BS.... Damned dice)
Back to top Go down
The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2501
Join date : 2012-01-16
Location : Rutland - UK

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 23:05

depends what you're twin linking - if you twin link 20 shots from a raider then you should still average 6 hits, 3 wounds and 1 unsaved.

_________________
Tan? You're joking, I'm a gamer, you're lucky I'm wearing deodorant!

My Blog - The Burning Eye Blog (check it out - comments always welcome)

My Project Log - Visions of the Burning Eye

My Gaming Log - Chronicles of the Burning Eye

My Club - MAD Wargaming

My Fluff - Kabal of the Burning Eye, Cult of the Shadowed Blade and Coven of Distorted Perfection
Back to top Go down
http://theburningeye.blogspot.com
nexs
Wych
avatar

Posts : 766
Join date : 2014-12-28

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Tue Mar 17 2015, 00:05

That's fair, but there's a further 2/3 chance they won't get grounded. At least if they jink they'll be useless for a turn Smile
Back to top Go down
jbwms713
Kabalite Warrior


Posts : 119
Join date : 2013-07-13

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Tue Mar 17 2015, 00:34

The Raider brings a different utility to the table, that's all.

The vehicle can jink, and the anti-infantry fire is unaffected. This makes the unit as a whole far more survivable - an extra HP on the boat, a 4+ save that you (if you're looking at infantry) don't have to think about saying yes to, and twice the bodies which make it that much easier to make it to late-game-fearless for objectives.

The game isn't just about killing power, so looking at point-per-wound caused can mislead you sometimes.
Back to top Go down
Calyptra
Wych
avatar

Posts : 796
Join date : 2013-03-25
Location : Boston

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Mon Mar 23 2015, 23:44

I agree that points-per-wound is far from the only important metric, but it's still a useful data point.

@nexs wrote:
That's fair, but there's a further 2/3 chance they won't get grounded. At least if they jink they'll be useless for a turn Smile

I think they can still Vector Strike. But, yes, it does help to limit their effectiveness.

_________________
Dark Eldar plog: Drug-Crazed Space Elves
Stupid humans plog: Calyptra's Stupid Humans
Vampire Counts plog: Bat Country
Back to top Go down
Its_Rumble
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 478
Join date : 2014-04-04
Location : CA

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 03:15

you would need to mass flyers to do anything effective against a FMC. Most have 2+ jink, I've had a razorwing take one down with nice rolls but against skyblight you just need to either make a whole list to combat it or just forget about it in competetive play. I think with a 2+ jink it takes like 120 poison shots to get it out of the sky... which is practically 1200 points of DE shooting at 250 points of flyrant. Sure you might kill one but they still have 4 more on the table (hive fleet/Skyblight 'or whatever the gargoyle list is) it's brutal and I just don't think theres a point trying to counter it.

_________________
Back to top Go down
Bleaksoul Brethren
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 252
Join date : 2014-09-02
Location : San Antonio

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 04:46

The only fmc that are worrisome are the flying hive tyrants and the only time they have a 2+ is 1st turn within venemthrope range (which you should kill first on almost any occasion the only exception is when the guy doesn't jink with tyrants and they aren't in ruins). 4 wounds 3+ armor T6. Disintegrators are nice but wound on 5's so not as good and DL snap shooting are unreliable. so when shooting at them you need to get 12 wounds to kill them (I never include grounding tests when it happens it is nice though). 12 wounds wounding on 4's require 24 hits, 24 hits wounding on 6's require 144 shots or 12 venoms (780 points) to kill a tyrant in 1 turn. In boats with 20 shots (rapid fire) you are throwing up 37 shots total (assuming 3 hit first time) meaning you only need 4 boats (660) to kill a tyrant. Also the boats are more likely to live through the tyrants shooting if they are in range to shoot them before you shoot so you can jink for a 3+ against them. Tyrant shoots 12 shots, 10 hit, 5 glance or pens save 3. So as long as he doesnt roll a 6 on the pen you should be able to shoot.

The downside with the boat is that it has to be at close range so you are better going second and counter deploying in hopes that his guns cant reach your boats.
Conclusion boats are better at close range but venoms are better at long range.
Back to top Go down
Calyptra
Wych
avatar

Posts : 796
Join date : 2013-03-25
Location : Boston

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 07:50

Hive Tyrants can also get regeneration, so if you can't kill it in one turn, you may need to inflict even more wounds to get rid of the thing.

_________________
Dark Eldar plog: Drug-Crazed Space Elves
Stupid humans plog: Calyptra's Stupid Humans
Vampire Counts plog: Bat Country
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 7141
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 09:31

@Its_Rumble wrote:
you would need to mass flyers to do anything effective against a FMC. Most have 2+ jink

Sorry but where are all these 2+ jink saves coming from? Other than a Nurgle DP I can't think of any off the top of my head.

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2501
Join date : 2012-01-16
Location : Rutland - UK

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 12:46

venomthropes?

_________________
Tan? You're joking, I'm a gamer, you're lucky I'm wearing deodorant!

My Blog - The Burning Eye Blog (check it out - comments always welcome)

My Project Log - Visions of the Burning Eye

My Gaming Log - Chronicles of the Burning Eye

My Club - MAD Wargaming

My Fluff - Kabal of the Burning Eye, Cult of the Shadowed Blade and Coven of Distorted Perfection
Back to top Go down
http://theburningeye.blogspot.com
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 7141
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 12:57

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
venomthropes?

To be honest, if a Flyrant is staying within 6" of a Venomthrope then I'll just outrange him as he's pretty much stuck in place.

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2501
Join date : 2012-01-16
Location : Rutland - UK

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 14:51

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
venomthropes?

To be honest, if a Flyrant is staying within 6" of a Venomthrope then I'll just outrange him as he's pretty much stuck in place.

Agreed, I was just trying to think of cases where they could get a 2+

_________________
Tan? You're joking, I'm a gamer, you're lucky I'm wearing deodorant!

My Blog - The Burning Eye Blog (check it out - comments always welcome)

My Project Log - Visions of the Burning Eye

My Gaming Log - Chronicles of the Burning Eye

My Club - MAD Wargaming

My Fluff - Kabal of the Burning Eye, Cult of the Shadowed Blade and Coven of Distorted Perfection
Back to top Go down
http://theburningeye.blogspot.com
Bleaksoul Brethren
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 252
Join date : 2014-09-02
Location : San Antonio

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Tue Mar 24 2015, 22:47

@Calyptra wrote:
Hive Tyrants can also get regeneration, so if you can't kill it in one turn, you may need to inflict even more wounds to get rid of the thing.
I think that was old dex they dont have that anymore (except maybe in cc but if that's the case the tyrants arent much of a problem). Though with fighter ace they can get +1 wound.
Back to top Go down
Calyptra
Wych
avatar

Posts : 796
Join date : 2013-03-25
Location : Boston

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Wed Mar 25 2015, 01:12

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
@Calyptra wrote:
Hive Tyrants can also get regeneration, so if you can't kill it in one turn, you may need to inflict even more wounds to get rid of the thing.
I think that was old dex they dont have that anymore (except maybe in cc but if that's the case the tyrants arent much of a problem). Though with fighter ace they can get +1 wound.

It's a 30 point Biomorph in their current codex. They regain a wound on a 4+ at the end of each turn.

_________________
Dark Eldar plog: Drug-Crazed Space Elves
Stupid humans plog: Calyptra's Stupid Humans
Vampire Counts plog: Bat Country
Back to top Go down
Bleaksoul Brethren
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 252
Join date : 2014-09-02
Location : San Antonio

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Wed Mar 25 2015, 02:02

You are absolutely right. I wonder why the guys that play tyranids in my area dont use it...
Back to top Go down
Vasara
Incognito assault marine
avatar

Posts : 1160
Join date : 2012-08-22
Location : Vantaa

PostSubject: Re: Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?   Wed Mar 25 2015, 08:04

"The" Flyrant costs 240 pts with grubs and devourers. other upgrades brings it too expencive. and most of the time it dies in one turn of shooting or cc.

_________________
New Dark Eldar in Tournaments: Wins: 17 Draws: 2 Losses: 8
ETC 2013 DE/Eldar player (4th)
ETC 2014 Coach (16th)
ETC 2015 Captain, Eldar/DE (10th)
Painting blog
Back to top Go down
 
Are flying monstrous creatures a reason to take splinter rack gunboats?
Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Drukhari Tactics
-
Jump to: