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depayen
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PostSubject: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Fri Mar 13 2015, 17:03

A debate came up during a game involving a razorwing. I player flew his razorwing on from reserve and proceed to launch all 4 missiles shoot both dark lances and the splintercannon at unit. People were saying you can not do that. Is this legal or not? I have been looking in the BRB last night but I can not find anything saying yes or no to what this person did.

Curious.

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Fri Mar 13 2015, 17:12

yes, but:

4 missiles with normal BF (like in the description of the Flyer-rules)
(assuming that not moved mor then 36")

the remaining:
both dark lances and the splintercannon
only at snapshot (like in the description of vehicules)
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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Fri Mar 13 2015, 18:44

thank you

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Fri Mar 13 2015, 23:38

never known anyone claim that a flyer can shoot more than 4 weapons, even with snapshots.

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Sat Mar 14 2015, 14:25

I read it yesterday, the rules say it can fire up to 4 weapons with normal bs. And it says that in the context of a vehicle moving at combat speed, that can normally fire only 1 weapon with full bs and all others snap shooting.

As I understand it, firing 4 missiles at full bs plus all other weapons snap shooting should be correct

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Sat Mar 14 2015, 16:09

Except your not given permission to snap shoot - just shoot 4 weapons at full BS. The flyer rules are more specific and we have no reference to allow the snap shots

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Sat Mar 14 2015, 19:45

Wouldn't the reference be the generic vehicle rules about moving and shooting?

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Sat Mar 14 2015, 21:36

@Thor665 wrote:
Wouldn't the reference be the generic vehicle rules about moving and shooting?

That's how I've been interpreting it. I was very pleased with myself when I realised!

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Sun Mar 15 2015, 01:36

@Thor665 wrote:
Wouldn't the reference be the generic vehicle rules about moving and shooting?

But the flyer rules override the standard ones as they are more specific. Like a number of flyer rules...immobilised results for example or how far they move and turn.

It very specifically tells us how many weapons we can fire and has no caveat for snap shots

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Sun Mar 15 2015, 11:24

@Massaen wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
Wouldn't the reference be the generic vehicle rules about moving and shooting?

But the flyer rules override the standard ones as they are more specific. Like a number of flyer rules...immobilised results for example or how far they move and turn.

It very specifically tells us how many weapons we can fire and has no caveat for snap shots

Sorry mate, Thor ( and others) are correct.

Flyer rule  refers to combat and cruise speeds and says either speed 4 weapons. Combat and Cruising speeds are under general vehicle rules and include the option to fire other weapons if the unit so wishes.

p.84, under paragraph heading Zoom; a flyer has a Combat speed of 18" and a Cruising speed of up to 36"

further down, under sub paragraph Zooming and Shooting; Zooming flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using full Ballistic skill if they have moved at either Combat speed or Cruising speed. note it does not say may not fire other weapons, or may only fire those four.

and under vehicles, p.73 under paragraph heading Vehicles in the Shooting Phase ...a vehicle that moved at combat speed may fire a single weapon using its Ballistic skill...The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons if it wishes.
and
A vehicle that moved at Combat speed may only make Snap Shots as above.


Flyers can shoot 4 weapons at Full BS and snap the rest, as long as they can be fired as snap shots.

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Sun Mar 15 2015, 17:34

My gosh I've been missing oodles of shots
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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Sun Mar 15 2015, 21:23

Interesting, not looked up the reference myself yet, but still, interesting. Not sure those extra 'oodles' of shots are really likely to do much given the odds of them hitting, but I'm still intrigued.

Of course the scariest prospect for this is not the razorwing, but the stormraven, which brings four full bs missiles, can then snap fire its twin linked weapons and still fire the hurricane bolters at an alternative target. Flying tank it most certainly is!

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 04:16

Again and again it proves that Games Workshop should release "patch notes" for their editions and state all changes! Can't believe I could've had a shot at murdering just a little bit more with my Razorwings! Sad

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 12:35

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
Sorry mate, Thor ( and others) are correct.

Flyer rule  refers to combat and cruise speeds and says either speed 4 weapons. Combat and Cruising speeds are under general vehicle rules and include the option to fire other weapons if the unit so wishes.

p.84, under paragraph heading Zoom; a flyer has a Combat speed of 18" and a Cruising speed of up to 36"

further down, under sub paragraph Zooming and Shooting; Zooming flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using full Ballistic skill if they have moved at either Combat speed or Cruising speed. note it does not say may not fire other weapons, or may only fire those four.

and under vehicles, p.73 under paragraph heading Vehicles in the Shooting Phase ...a vehicle that moved at combat speed may fire a single weapon using its Ballistic skill...The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons if it wishes.
and
A vehicle that moved at Combat speed may only make Snap Shots as above.


Flyers can shoot 4 weapons at Full BS and snap the rest, as long as they can be fired as snap shots.

Just saying I am wrong does not make it so - and I will ignore the condescending tone of your reply as well.

The rules don't need to say what I cant do - they tell me what I can do. Games are permissive. You cant cherry pick the rules you like and combine them. You either follow the standard vehicle rules for shooting weapons or you follow the flyer rules.

As an example, look at the rules for vehicles with the FAST type. It very clearly says that when moving at combat speed they can fire ALL weapons and when moving at cruising, they can fire up to 2 weapons and the others may make snap shots.

A vehicle with the flyer type is only given permission to fire 4 weapons at full BS at combat or cruising speed. That's it. There is no permission to apply any other rules and no caveat that allows snap shots.

If you could always snap fire weapons there would be no need to say it in the fast vehicle rules.

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 19:21

Looks like this needs to go into the next batch of proposed FAQ questions.
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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Mon Mar 16 2015, 20:15

@Massaen wrote:


Just saying I am wrong does not make it so - and I will ignore the condescending tone of your reply as well.

The rules don't need to say what I cant do - they tell me what I can do. Games are permissive. You cant cherry pick the rules you like and combine them. You either follow the standard vehicle rules for shooting weapons or you follow the flyer rules.

As an example, look at the rules for vehicles with the FAST type. It very clearly says that when moving at combat speed they can fire ALL weapons and when moving at cruising, they can fire up to 2 weapons and the others may make snap shots.

A vehicle with the flyer type is only given permission to fire 4 weapons at full BS at combat or cruising speed. That's it. There is no permission to apply any other rules and no caveat that allows snap shots.

If you could always snap fire weapons there would be no need to say it in the fast vehicle rules.

Not sure how being clear and quoting page numbers for ease of reference can be considered condescending-It was not intended.

Page 72, Vehicles, states in the second paragraph "...First were going to look at rules and characteristics that all vehicles have in common, then we'll cover more specialist sets of rules for Flyers, Tanks and more."

That would seem to include Combat and Cruising speed rules, and how vehicles work in the shooting phase.  It would also infer that Flyers and tanks have special rules (which they do) and have common rules (which again they do).

If I understand your reasoning, you are assuming that because Fast, another category of vehicle just like flyer, chariot, tank etc, adds the caveat that other weapons can be fired as snap shots, and the paragraph under flyers does not, that flyers cant. I see what you are saying, and I disagree.

As I ( and others ) read it, I am following the standard and the flyer rules for resolving shooting attacks; They are vehicles, they follow the standard vehicle shooting rules with the addition that they may fire 4 shots at Full BS at either combat or cruising speed. There is no cherry picking of rules, I follow the specific then the general. As an example I point you to p.86-Chariots. It doesn't mention they can fire snapshots, but as it has a vehicle profile we default to the general vehicle rules, and follow those to resolve this. Just like a flyer firing more than four weapons would have to.

Ultimately play it how you wish. What this forum, my opinion, or anyone elses has to do with yours or my game really doesn't matter. When it comes to rule interpretations they are exactly that-interpretations. What your club decides and what mine does will most likely be different, if an FAQ arrives that sides with one of us then we'll both be on the same page.

Until then may your dice all roll 6's, unless its a leadership test!

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Tue Mar 17 2015, 01:36

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
Sorry mate, Thor ( and others) are correct.

This is the bit that I took as condescending but I would like to apologise for my jab at you - never post off the back of a tough day at work. I was not in the right frame of mind and I took offence when none was intended. Sorry about that. Embarassed

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
As I ( and others ) read it, I am following the standard and the flyer rules for resolving shooting attacks; They are vehicles, they follow the standard vehicle shooting rules with the addition that they may fire 4 shots at Full BS at either combat or cruising speed. There is no cherry picking of rules, I follow the specific then the general. As an example I point you to p.86-Chariots. It doesn't mention they can fire snapshots, but as it has a vehicle profile we default to the general vehicle rules, and follow those to resolve this. Just like a flyer firing more than four weapons would have to.

I get where you are coming from but can't see the logic. We are told very clearly in every section of the vehicle rules exactly how many weapons each vehicle can fire when they move a certain speed. would you say that because I rolled an immobilised result you can leave your flyer stationary or would you follow the flyer specific rules? Same situation with weapons - flyers specific rules over rider general rules, not played alongside them.

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
Ultimately play it how you wish. What this forum, my opinion, or anyone elses has to do with yours or my game really doesn't matter. When it comes to rule interpretations they are exactly that-interpretations. What your club decides and what mine does will most likely be different, if an FAQ arrives that sides with one of us then we'll both be on the same page. Until then may your dice all roll 6's, unless its a leadership test!

I agree - at the end of the day its going to come down to the social contract again between players - either as clarified by a TO or by the players in question. Again, sorry about my stab at you in my last post.

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Tue Mar 17 2015, 08:51

I had a look at this last night - I have to say I came to the same conclusion as Massaen - the section on flyers and shooting reads quite clearly to my mind and overrrules the general rules section on vehicles and shooting - I read it that the flyer rules for shooting are that whether moving at combat or cruising speed, a flyer can fire 4 weapons at full BS. It prefaces this section by detailing that flyer have sophisticated targeting equipment for working at high speeds.

What it doesn't do is specify that flyers can fire more than 4 weapons in a turn, which I would expect it to if it were possible.

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Tue Mar 17 2015, 09:38

Which other vehicle types do - see Fast as an example

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Tue Mar 17 2015, 14:58

@Massaen wrote:
@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
Sorry mate, Thor ( and others) are correct.

This is the bit that I took as condescending but I would like to apologise for my jab at you - never post off the back of a tough day at work. I was not in the right frame of mind and I took offence when none was intended. Sorry about that. Embarassed

Thanks for that mate. It is very much appreciated. Very Happy


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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Wed Mar 18 2015, 13:57

I'm with Massaen on this one. The rules for shooting Flyers is more specific than the general vehicle shooting rules, and make no mention of firing any weapons over the 4 mentioned.

At the very least, none of my flyers will attempt to fire more than 4 weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Thu Mar 19 2015, 15:26

@Dra'al Nacht wrote:
I'm with Massaen on this one. The rules for shooting Flyers is more specific than the general vehicle shooting rules, and make no mention of firing any weapons over the 4 mentioned.

At the very least, none of my flyers will attempt to fire more than 4 weapons.

Ultimately that's the point isn't it? Without a specific rule its left to the player. If it said "may only fire 4 weapons" there would be no discussion, but it does not. whether its an oversight, a misprint or a bad edit, call it how you see it and enjoy!

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Sun Mar 29 2015, 10:56

Well, they way i interpret rules is i ask two questions. Where does it say i can do it? Where does it say i cannot. If you state your unit can do "x" then you need to prove it in rule. If you can, and i disagree then i need to find it in the rules where it states it cannot.

As far as this discussion goes, you are misquoting the rule.

The line is not "MAY only fire up to four of their weapons at full ballistic skill......"

The line is "CAN fire ....."

What its stating is a addendum for the general vehicle rule where they would only be able to fire 1 weapon at full BS if it moved at combat speed speed. If you read the rule for vehicles moving at combat speed it can fire the rest of its weapons as snap shots, if those weapons can be fired as snapshots.

I think you may be getting hung up on the Cruising Speed bullet point that is under the Combat Speed bullet point. Cruising speed states you can only make snap shots. It does not specifically state how many weapons may fire. But it does by the the last two words in the bullet point, "as above" referring to combat speed.

So if a flyer has 20 weapons, it can "zoom" 18 or 36 it does not matter, it gets 4 shots at full BS, the rest are snaps, IF those weapons can be snap fired.


Edit. Oh yea, forgot the very first rule, its in the front of book. If you disagree, roll the dice 1-3 you win and play the rule as you interpret it, 4-6 they win. Funny how games do not get played due to some player complain about a xtra snapshot. And the truth is you probably screwed up at least 2 rules by turn two.
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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Sun Mar 29 2015, 11:48

It's not an addendum at all - it's a stand alone rule which is more specific and therefore over rules the standard rule.

Again i will cite the difference between flyer and fast in the way weapons are referenced. Both are vehicle types and very clear about how many and at what BS the weapons they can shoot at.

I don't need to find a rule saying I can't do something, I need a rule to say I can do something and we are given zero permission to snap shot along side normal shooting with a flyer

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PostSubject: Re: How Many weapon can you fire from a razorwing?   Sun Mar 29 2015, 16:39

Your justification is that the rule referenced under Fast specifically states that it can snap fire the rest of the shots. That rule was already there. The ONLY important rule was that it fires 2 at full BS. We already have the rule that the rest fire at snap shots. The flyer rule is 1 paragraph long and only states that you get to fire 4 weapons at full BS, that is the only part of a moving vehicle rule that is changed from the base rule. The snap shot rule still is there.

Play how you like, you are just wrong.

Permissive rule was found and explained. Find the restriction. no where does it state that flyers cannot fire snapshots. Flyers are vehicles, they use vehicle rules. This is how the game works from GW standpoint.

Base rules always are in affect thin of them rule A
Flyers rules are always in affect in addition to rule A. So think of them as A.1

When referring to rules you always use the base rule first, then look at the addendum for the unit type.

Vehicles are relentless and to further depict this the rules are wrote to reflect this and then some.

I stated this before the rule has no restrictive language in it. It only enhances the rule that is already in place for vehicles.
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