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 Dealing with Demons and their FMC's

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SweaterKittens
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PostSubject: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Tue Mar 10 2015, 07:15

There's a guy at my FLGS who has taken to running a summoning Daemon list. In the last game we played, he ran an Imperial Knight allied to a flying, summoning Daemon Prince. In a 750 point game. Ignoring the fact that his list was a bag of turds (and I told him as much), this has consistently been a problem for me. Last week he brought two summoning DP's (or maybe one was a GUO, I'm not familiar with daemons but either way they both summoned hard) and it went atrociously. To give you an idea of how the game progresses:

He camps his nurgling troops on every objective, generally in terrain where he'll get a cover save. With the Shrouded his troops get from Nurgle, that means a 2+/3+ generally. He then moves up the field with his DP/s and summons new units every turn, generally starting with Pink Horrors or whatever the Daemon psykers are, so he can then use sacrifice or possession to summon MORE daemons. I try to focus down the DP, and he jinks for a 2+. I can't take any objectives because his Nurglings are Obsec and with ridiculous saves and multiple wounds, I can't kill them all off. In the game where he brought two, I literally devoted my entire armies shooting to killing the flying Daemon Prince for two turns, and could not kill it. I did the math afterwards, and snap-shooting plus the 2+ jink save meant that there was a 1/36 chance that any of my shots would even connect, and (assuming all my shots are poison) 1/2 of those would actually wound. Giving me a wopping 1/72 chance that he'd take an unsaved wound. Keep in mind, that even if I COULD gun this monstrosity down, by the time he's in assault range there are twice as many daemon units on the board, I have taken 0 objectives, and he's drawn fire for everything else.

How in god's name do I deal with this? Aside from Venom Spam, which would lose it's ass against any army with vehicles, how can I beat this? Hell even with Venoms it would take (assuming dual cannons) 3 Venoms to put a single wound on him. I considered trying to engage him in CC, but that's not going to happen until he lands, and at that point he's right up in my Deployment zone. Even if I could engage him in CC wherever I wanted, he has some greater gift weapon that he's always bragging about before the match starts, and generally Iron Arm or some other ultra-buffed melee power that he cast after summoning.

It's especially driving me nuts because I just started playing in February, and my fairly soft list of mostly starter units is getting torn to shreds by this guy, who really goes the whole nine yards with his army by looking and acting like a Great Unclean One. /rant. Any help is much appreciated in all of this.
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Tue Mar 10 2015, 16:31

I have never played against a daemonspam army, but I can give you my best solutions to the individual problems this one consists of:

Summoners - Helm of Spite + WWP
You can have only one of these, but it will make summoning significantly more risky in a 12'' radius, as it makes psykers peril on any doubles. Pack the character into a unit that is hard to kill. A big blob of Wyches could actually be useful for that, since most Daemon units can't shoot, let alone overwatch.
More psychic defense can come from an allied Farseer (for pure psychic power), Spiritseer (can bring two units of Wraithguards with Warpscythes along) or Shadowseers (can come in formations, so they don't require a full Masque detachment). Better don't try giving the latter Sanctic powers though. They are no Grey Knights!

Nurglings - Flame weapons
A court featuring at least 2 Medusae, maybe with 3 Sslyth to defend them, in a Venom. They won't have much of a problem cleaning up Nurglings.
Another unit that could be helpful for that job are Mandrakes. Infiltrate them in cover near the objectives and let them baleblast any swarm that dares to get close.

Other Nurgle units - Splinter weapons/Coven units
Most ironically, Deamons of Nurgle don't deal well with Poison. Shrouded only protects against shooting, so you can either try and pump as many splinters as possible into them, or just assault them with poisoned close combat attacks.

Pink Horrors - Pretty much everything
Aside from their ability to summon more Daemons, Pink Horrors are actually a pretty crappy unit. If you can just hit them often enough, you won't have much trouble killing them. The important part is to do that asap!

Flying Princes - Razorwings
Instead of using your firepower on the Horrors, you got distracted by him in that last game. Keep in mind that he is not the main threat!
Two or three Razorwings should help dealing with both; Splinter Cannons and Disintegrators (no Dark Lances!) for the Prince and missiles for the Horrors.
Another unit that could help you are 5 Dark Reapers in a DE transport. I know, it's an allied unit, but they have the perfect weapon against 2+ jinks: An Exarch with Eldar Missile Launcher, Flakk Missiles and Fast Shot; that's two BS 5 Strength 7 skyfire shots that ignore jink saves! And the rest of their shots is very good against infantry.


Last edited by Rokuro on Tue Mar 10 2015, 16:55; edited 3 times in total
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Tue Mar 10 2015, 16:49

I haven't played against Daemons or Knights yet, or encountered a flying monstrous creature, so I don't have much advice for you. Posting your list here might be helpful.

I firmly believe that ignorance will lose you games faster than anything else. If I get curb stomped, I start spending time reading the faction book of whoever did the stomping. If you can afford it -- and I know they're expensive -- I would buy the Daemons codex. Not only will you be better informed about what they can and can't do, you'll also be able to make sure the ravening cheese monkey you're playing against is playing them right.

I wish I had better advice than "go buy a $50 book." (Maybe you have a friend who has it who can lend it to you?) Know your enemy, knowledge is power.

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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Tue Mar 10 2015, 21:00

I play against summoning daemon list almost weekly (or so it seems) albeit he fields three soul grinders (with torrent flamers) rather than a knight but the problems are similar.

First up what Rokuro says is very good advice and so I’m not going to repeat it.

However what points level are you playing at (is it still 750pts? As in your earlier post?) because if it is he’s getting a lot for his points……. Not that I’m accusing him of anything but it might be worth while to check his list. I can just about create a 750pt list with a knight (bare bones) flying DP with ML3 (which he’ll need to summon anything) and 2 units of bare bone nurglings.

If this is more or less his list then he will struggle to cast one summoning spell reliably per turn, and not be able to cast two in a turn (well until he gets pink horrors on the board). As you’re new to the game it might be worth while reading up on the psychic phase.

I know I said I wasn’t going to repeat what Rokuro said, but this is important, kill the pink horrors as quick as possible. Assault them if you need to, they die even quicker in assault than they do in shooting (read about daemonic instability).

For the flying DP I’d use a raider with 9 kablites, splinter racks and night shields (if you don’t have sky fire then massed twin linked fire power is what you need). An Archon with helm of spite wouldn’t hurt either. However, this is probably becoming a tailored list…….

Also read the rule book regarding swooping and gliding monstrous creatures as their movement is limited so forgoing shooting to get in behind him could be a good idea. because of the movement restricting when swooping it is possible to out maneuvor them / force them where you want them to go. Do not forget that our transports are fast skimmers and so can flat out 18” (24” with sails). If he goes from swooping to gliding, he cannot charge the same turn therefore you get a full round of full BS shooting at him.  

Also of note is that any summoned troops are NOT Obsec. He’ll argue that they are, just point out that not all troops are Obsec, Obsec is a command benefit for troops taken as part of a CAD. He’ll then say well if they’re not part of the CAD what are they, just say summoned units………..(I’ve heard this argument too many times…….)

also play to the misson......
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Tue Mar 10 2015, 21:12

Generally speaking I don't tailor lists. That said, this is exactly the circumstance where I would make an exception: a player who is sucking the fun out of the game for you, who you just need to feel like you at least have a chance of winning against in order to keep all your motivation and joy from being drained out of the hobby.

So I would say study his codex, tailor the most competitive list you can, and kick his butt.

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der-al
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Tue Mar 10 2015, 21:22

I second that Calytra.

on a side note proper LOW where the in thing for a couple of months in my meta, untill i started taking a CWE CAD with firedragons, DE raiders and WWP archons. it soon stopped.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Tue Mar 10 2015, 23:03

My advice is to ignore the flying princes completely, and just focus on what is on the ground. The knight obviously have to die quickly. I'd recommend a couple of Haywire Scourges units for this. the rest of your army should focus on removing ground stuff. Nurglings may be resilient to shooting, but sick a unit of Grotesques on them and watch them dissolve to nothing very fast. Everything he summons ought to go away to poison shooting.
Other than this, play your mission. Especially Maelstrom missions should win you the game with ease, since he lacks mobility and shooting completely. His FMCs need to land to grab objectives, and this is a good time to fill them up with cyanide. they only have 4 wounds, after all, and probably a few less due to Perils from summoning.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Tue Mar 10 2015, 23:13

Razorwing Jetfighters make pretty great anti FMCs when upgraded with the splinter cannon. They also can become pretty good multi purpose models if you add the lances - as they add 2 more lances per model on a chassis that is actually pretty sturdy from non skyfire shots due to everything snapfiring at it. Sturdier than our ravagers anyhow.

Either way, bringing them specifically for the FMCs is not even a sacrifice as they add some pretty great fire support on ground units too.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 01:37

I hate DP list. My brother and I faced against two DP list in a team tournament. One was nurgle summon list and another was a slaanesh list. We won against the nurgle list and lost to the slaanesh but only by 2 points. I will start including sc on my razorwings. I know nurgle is causing u problems but slaanesh is also dangerous. Their DP were shooting a lot of str 9 shots. I never saw something take down a wave serpent like those things did.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 01:54

@Sigmaril wrote:
The knight obviously have to die quickly. I'd recommend a couple of Haywire Scourges units for this.

Right, I forgot to talk about how to deal with the Knight: Simply put him in between two anti-tank units, such as Haywire Scourges. A Knight can only use his shield on one side, so he won't get his 4++ against one of those units.

@Caldria wrote:
Razorwing Jetfighters make pretty great anti FMCs when upgraded with the splinter cannon. They also can become pretty good multi purpose models if you add the lances - as they add 2 more lances per model on a chassis that is actually pretty sturdy from non skyfire shots due to everything snapfiring at it. Sturdier than our ravagers anyhow.

Either way, bringing them specifically for the FMCs is not even a sacrifice as they add some pretty great fire support on ground units too.

In this case, Dark Lances are actually not very useful. The Lance special rule does nothing against monstrous creatures. And three shots from a Disintegrator are statistically more likely than one from a Dark Lance to wound something with a 2+ save.
Also, since most of the army you discribed consists of infantry, that too calls for multi-shot weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 02:35

But the lance wounds on 2+ while the dissie is wounding on 4+ or even worse!

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 02:52

@Massaen wrote:
But the lance wounds on 2+ while the dissie is wounding on 4+ or even worse!

Remember that Disintegrators have 3 shots though, not just 1. You get three chances to roll 4+, and your opponent gets three chances to roll a 1.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 03:03

also, the daemon prince can vector strike 1D3 S6 hits with Ignore Cover on the Razorwings...
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 08:06

Holy cow, thanks for all the response, guys. I really appreciate all the help. Just so everyone knows, games at my FLGS are just pick-up, there's no bracket or set opponents, it just so happens that I've been one of the first few people at the store along with this guy, so as people are pairing up, it just happens. So tailoring, however necessary and/or satisfying, would be difficult to do as I might just never get a game with him. I certainly try to avoid it whenever possible, but I would like the tools and knowhow to deal with it when it inevitably happens again, whether I'm facing him or someone else.

Here is my current list, although I think it'll change rather dramatically for this Sunday, since I lost both games with it last week.

750 pts:
- Lhamean
in a Venom with Dual Cannons
- 5 Kabalites w/ Blaster
in a Raider with Night Shields and a Dark Lance
- 5 Kabalites w/ Blaster
in a Raider with Night Shields and a Dark Lance
- 6 Reaver Jetbikes w/ Cluster Caltrops
- 5 Scourge w/ 4 Blasters
- Razorwing Jetfighter w/ 2 Dark Lances

@Rokuro, excellent advice, next I'll ignore the FMC and just go ham on the objectives. I just ordered a big group of Medusae and Sslyth/Grotesque counts-as so I'll have the tools to do some nasty assault as well as get rid of that 2+ jink crap. I'm also in the process of building some more kabalites and getting some more venoms - which I think I desperately need. I also think I'll work Helm of Spite into my list somehow - especially once I get my Grotesques. Against both the summoning shenanigans and another guy who plays GK and always curbstomps me - it'll be real handy. It'll be easier once the point limit goes up and 25 points wont' be as big of a deal. I'll play far more aggressively next time and I might have more luck with the objectives. I think I'm focusing in too much on the DP instead of focusing on winning.

@Calyptra, I appreciate the advice, even if it involves getting another army's codex, haha. I think a buddy of mine has one I can borrow.

@Der-al, That's pretty much his list exactly, at least in that game. Barebones Knight Paladin, ML3 DP, and two units of Nurglings. Turn one he deepstrikes them on objectives, moves up aggressively with the knight and DP, and immediately starts summoning more Pink Horrors, etc. Good to know that his summons are not obsec, that sounds like something he would definitely argue. I plan on running Realspace Raiders eventually, but in the meantime that's a good thing to remember. As I said before, I'm getting some grotesques for dedicated assault troops, right now I only have Wyches and they're an enormous waste of points at this point level (750).


It's exceedingly difficult for me to find a happy medium with the guys I'm playing against. It seems that they either have a Knight, or a Fire Raptor, that I just don't have the tools to deal with, or they have literally no vehicles, like the GK player who stomps me all the time, or the Daemon summoning shenanigans. I bring more splinter fire, I have even less AT to deal with the heavy vehicles I'm already struggling to deal with. I bring more AT, it's borderline worthless against MC/infantry armies. Not to mention that even though Dark Lances are great, as Rokuro said it's one shot that has a high chance of missing or getting jinked/inv. saved, etc. Which means that I lose a lot of firepower where a Splinter Cannon would've been much, much better.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 09:09

One advice added to all already said: if you can, try to kill the Pink Horrors. A Daemonspam list need a lot of WarpCharges, and Pink Horrors give him 3 of them. They are the weakness warpcharge-generatorsl.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 09:09

Here is a list I started tailoring last night:


Realspace Raiders detachment

Archon (60) with Haywire Grenades (5) and Helm of Spite (25).
Attach him to the Court. Also, try to get the Labyrinthic Mind warlord trait on him.
= 90 points

Court of the Archon: 2 Medusae (50) in a Venom (55) with 2 Splinter Cannons (10)
= 115 points

5 Kabalite Warriors (40) with 1 Blaster (15) in a Venom (55) with 2 Splinter Cannons (10)
= 120

5 Kabalite Warriors (40) with 1 Blaster (15) in a Venom (55) with 2 Splinter Cannons (10)
= 120

2 Razorwing Jetfighters (260) with Splinter Cannons (20) and Dark Lances (20)
Those lances may not help much against the Daemon Prince, but you will need them against the Knight.
= 300 points

Spare: 5 points. I'd use them to put Chain Snares on one of the Venoms, for the lack of a better option.

Total = 750 points


Battle plan:
Null deployment. Definitely keep the Archon out of the Knight's line of sight, as well as out of the Prince's vector strike range.
Make sure that the Razorwings are the first that come from reserve, and focus their fire on the Nurgle Prince immediately. The Knight will only be able to snapfire one, possibly two Heavy Stubbers at them.
If you can, keep the Archon near the prince to make summoning harder for him. That's easier to do after he crashed, of course.
Then get your lance weapons to surround the Knight evenly. That includes those on the Razorwings, after they dealt with the Prince.
If he got Pink Horrors on the table at this point, use the Venoms' Splinter Cannons against them while the passengers shoot at the Knight. Also, get the Archon near them to hinder more summoning.
After you dealt with the Knight, mop up the rest of his Daemons at range. Now is the time to fire the Ravorwings' missiles. Use the Medusae against targets in cover. Try to stay in the transports to be a little safer, but still avoid being assaulted. Strength 4 is enough to glance a Venom.


Disclaimer:
This list is build purely upon theory. As I mentioned before, I have never actually played against such an opponent or with such a list myself.


Last edited by Rokuro on Thu Mar 12 2015, 11:06; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 09:47

One other thing to remember, I find alot of fmc armies try to bluff out of this if you get first turn his fmc's start as jump mc's so get hit at full bs, i know its only an if.

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 11:02

Yeah I go allies and rock him with Dark Reapers. Fast shot on the Exarch, Aegis+Lascannon is 2 str 9 shots he can't jink. Don't forget they are Slow and Purposeful so you can have them in a Wave Serpent to protect them if you're going second, disembark and man the guns.

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 11:09

I am also of the opinion to ignore the daemon prince. Especially if he has the mark of nurgle he will be sporting a 2+ cover save (assuming he will jink), so you'll most likely be wasting shots on him...

As for the horrors if they are within ruins they can go to ground for a 3+ cover save with rerolls on 1s, not to mention the artifact the daemons have that can raise their ward save to 3+ on a 3+ roll...

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 11:10

@SweaterKittens wrote:
I just ordered a big group of Medusae and Sslyth/Grotesque counts-as

I'm currently looking for sslyth/grots alternative models as well. What minis did you order?
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 15:27

Regarding the anti-tank/anti-infantry balance, I found Mushkilla's game against serpent spam to be hugely inspirational. (Basically, he wins against an opponent that he cannot catch or hurt.)

At 750 points I'm currently playing a list comprised of a Scalpel Squadron and a Dark Artisan. The Talos has a twin-linked heat lance, which is the only anti-tank gun in the army. In theory, on the turn the Dark Artisan comes in I will get a single chance to blow up a single offending tank. It's working out pretty well so far, though I have yet to play against Grey Knights, Daemons, or Knights.

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 16:56

If you go first I'd suggest keeping the venoms on the board and trying to take a wound off of the daemon prince. It looks like a good list the latest one. I normally go against a daemon player but the games are around 1850 so I can bring more things to kill him with.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 17:26

@Siegfried VII wrote:
As for the horrors if they are within ruins they can go to ground for a 3+ cover save with rerolls on 1s, not to mention the artifact the daemons have that can raise their ward save to 3+ on a 3+ roll...

Maybe it's just a translation error, but my German Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines codices both say that Daemons of Tzeentch re-roll 1s on "Rettungswürfen" (= invulnerable saves), not "Schutzwürfen" (= save rolls in general). If that isn't an error, Horrors can't actually re-roll cover saves.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 18:50

In the english version my friend has showed me in Greece it says that they get to reroll all saves of 1. Could someone who owns Daemons contribute here?

Personally I will be very happy if the reroll is only for invunerable saves... Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with Demons and their FMC's   Wed Mar 11 2015, 19:20

"Daemons of Tzeentch reroll all saving throw results of 1"

Also, someone above said horrors give him 3 warp charge. That isn't always the case. The unit has to be 16+ to give three, and 11+ to give two. So if he summons a unit of horrors it comes in at 10 models and only gives 1 warp charge.

Summoning reliably takes an incredible amount of dice. If you're playing 750 point games and he's consistently able to summon something per turn I would read through the psychic phase back to front over and over, then watch this guy like a hawk.
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