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 BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts

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Scorpion
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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Wed Mar 11 2015, 12:33

I must say that I enjoy your BatReps. I learn a lot. I would love to see some videos of them even though I think you make an excelent job writing them.

Any plans of playing bigger games? say, 1500 or more points? Its obvious that your list and playstyle is very strong in small games (1250 points) but it would be interresting to see how you would develop your list.... What would you add? Wracks? a CAD ? Coven formations? RSR ?

How would your list look like if you had to add 500 points to it?

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Wed Mar 11 2015, 14:21

I have seen a GK-list outnumber another list at the same points value, I HAVE SEEN EVERYTHING.  bom

Quite tactical and cunning play, as always. This list is not getting old or uninteresting.
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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Wed Mar 11 2015, 22:14

@Scorpion wrote:
I must say that I enjoy your BatReps. I learn a lot. I would love to see some videos of them even though I think you make an excelent job writing them.

Personally I have never been a fan of video reports. I just don't think its a particularly good format. I want to enjoy the game, and having to play the role of camera man and general slows things down and makes the game less enjoyable for me and my opponent. It is after all a social contract.

I find the overview isn't as good, its very hard to get a good camera angle that keeps the whole board in focus and lets people see the big picture. The ideal camera angle (top down) require a proper ceiling mount. During the game you also don't have time to explain why you are doing things, or the finer points, and doing it after the report "tactics corner" style I find loses a lot of the context.

Finally they are not a great way to get feedback. If you are watching a video its hard to discuss a certain part, without referencing the exact time, people going into the video, finding the time stamp, going back to your post, reading it and then trying to make sense of the video. It's a lot more effort.

On the flip side a report with diagram takes time to write up, but is a lot more practical for feedback and discussion, as it's easy to scroll through and find what people are talking about. You can also navigate though it at your own pace, with video the camera man might be going to fast or too slow. But the biggest thing for me is it has minimal impact on the game, I take a quick picture of each turn and thats it.

@Scorpion wrote:
Any plans of playing bigger games? say, 1500 or more points? Its obvious that your list and playstyle is very strong in small games (1250 points) but it would be interresting to see how you would develop your list.... What would you add? Wracks? a CAD ? Coven formations? RSR ?

Not to sound boring, but probably more grots/talos. Haven't felt the need for anything else, at least not strong enough that its worth weakening the core strengths of the list for. I might change my mind after my game against Adamantine Lance though...

@Scorpion wrote:
How would your list look like if you had to add 500 points to it?

At 1500 I would probably give the corpsethief claw a go, and bump up the grotesque squads to 10 (drops me down to 3 units). The other option is just to add another two talos if I felt having three units was too restrictive.

@Mngwa wrote:
I have seen a GK-list outnumber another list at the same points value, I HAVE SEEN EVERYTHING.  bom

Haha, I didn't notice that the GK had one more model! Good catch!

@Mngwa wrote:
Quite tactical and cunning play, as always. This list is not getting old or uninteresting.

Good to hear it, I was worried people might start to get board of seeing the same units. But then again that never stopped me with the Black Buzzards. Very Happy

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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Wed Mar 11 2015, 22:54

@Mngwa wrote:
I have seen a GK-list outnumber another list at the same points value, I HAVE SEEN EVERYTHING.  bom

Quite tactical and cunning play, as always. This list is not getting old or uninteresting.

I have. He had three Storm Ravens and still outnumbered me. Though that MIGHT have been the tournament I decided it was a brilliant idea to field Dante, Mephiston, and Sanguinary guard all at once, taking up a full 700+ points with 7 models...

Do you think that the list will scale well, hypothetically? It looks like one of those things that works well at the 1000-1250 point limit, but I worry that going much beyond that will result in the outnumbering becoming more of an issue, and mobility becoming an even bigger one.

Also, have you considered swapping one of your Talos pairs for a Dark Artisan? You'd need to drop a few grots as well, but it might work nicely. Another option would be to split the Taloi up to 4 solos...yes, a disadvantage for kill points, but it allows you greater flexibility and means you can make plays for more objectives simultaneously. Either of those worth looking at?

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Wed Mar 11 2015, 23:39

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
Also, have you considered swapping one of your Talos pairs for a Dark Artisan? You'd need to drop a few grots as well, but it might work nicely. Another option would be to split the Taloi up to 4 solos...yes, a disadvantage for kill points, but it allows you greater flexibility and means you can make plays for more objectives simultaneously. Either of those worth looking at?

Single talos are much easier to take down for first blood...

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DimmyK
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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Wed Mar 11 2015, 23:52

@Mushkilla wrote:
That's a good point. I did consider it. However, you have to spend a turn waiting on the battlements, you then have to spend a turn to embark into the bastion, and only then can you disembark the following turn (so they will get two turns of shooting against it, and potentially two assault phases). Considering it was dilapidated as well (AV12).

Isn't there something in stronghold assault that lets you climb straight down? (might be confusing it)

or you could always 'jump' from the battlements taking the dangerous terrain test

just food for thought Smile
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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Thu Mar 12 2015, 08:29

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
Do you think that the list will scale well, hypothetically? It looks like one of those things that works well at the 1000-1250 point limit, but I worry that going much beyond that will result in the outnumbering becoming more of an issue, and mobility becoming an even bigger one.

I think it will still do fine at 1500. I will scale it up eventually, but right now I'm busy converting 20 grotesques and building more talos. So I'm in no rush just yet (much rather get everything painted and ready to go). But I'm sure i'll get there, and if it doesn't work out there are plenty of other options to consider. The number of objectives doesn't got up, so I'm not really that worried.

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
Also, have you considered swapping one of your Talos pairs for a Dark Artisan? You'd need to drop a few grots as well, but it might work nicely.

The DA has been bandied about in the discussions of the last report. However, in the end I have decided it's too expensive and doesn't really bring much to this list. Maybe at a higher points level it's worth considering, but for now I'm not a fan.

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
Another option would be to split the Taloi up to 4 solos...yes, a disadvantage for kill points, but it allows you greater flexibility and means you can make plays for more objectives simultaneously.

This is definitely something I want to explore. It could be very powerful in some match ups, but my concern is it makes first blood and destroy unit objectives easier (as @The_Burning_Eye mentioned). But the flexibility might outweigh the disadvantages.

On another note what are you experimenting with these days @Panic_Puppet? I always enjoy the variety in your lists.

@DimmyK wrote:
Isn't there something in stronghold assault that lets you climb straight down? (might be confusing it)

or you could always 'jump' from the battlements taking the dangerous terrain test

just food for thought Smile

There used to be a rule for jumping from battlements in 6th, but I can't find it in the 7th edition rule book (or strong hold assault). It used to be called something along the lines of "gravities downward express". So to my understanding you can't jump of buildings anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Thu Mar 12 2015, 09:38

I was looking for the jumping off buildings bit last night as it was something I was contemplating (with marines).

In the end I didn't need to since the unit failed a morale check and flung themselves off anyway with their fall back move!

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Thu Mar 12 2015, 23:07

You could always halfway-house it? Run a unit of 2 and 2 solos? I can see the justification for doing it either way, and why mess with a winning strategy.

I've just been too busy for the last several weeks to get a game in; mostly just messing around with things I enjoy using rather than aiming for any coherent strategy. I'll try and get a game this weekend with my newest toy though.

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Fri Mar 13 2015, 22:42

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
You could always halfway-house it? Run a unit of 2 and 2 solos? I can see the justification for doing it either way, and why mess with a winning strategy.

That's definitely sounds like something worth trying!Smile

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
I'll try and get a game this weekend with my newest toy though.

Dark Artisan?

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Sat Mar 14 2015, 07:45

How do you think will your list fare in games where Missions are not so important? I would think a Killpoint Game on a big table facing a mobile enemy (DE, Eldar) may be a very uphill battle?
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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Sat Mar 14 2015, 09:01

Kill point games are horrible for normal dark eldar, I fought a tau farsight list to a standstill on Thursday, he only had one crisis team alive at the end cowering out of range (though I didn't have much left either) but still won by 4 points thanks to me starting the game with 14 kill points on the board to his 8.

This list would be fine, it's only got 6 kill points so has every opportunity of doing well. The key thing is just negating the tactical flexibility of movement, which you do by layering your offense. Spread the grot units out so that when they arrive they're between 12" and 18" from the enemy, with a second layer behind them by about 12" (the talos). Your opponent then has to boost away from you, because if they overfly your first layer by enough to be out of charge range they're smack in front of your second layer.

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Sat Mar 14 2015, 14:33

@Thieron wrote:
How do you think will your list fare in games where Missions are not so important? I would think a Killpoint Game on a big table facing a mobile enemy (DE, Eldar) may be a very uphill battle?

I play on a standard 6x4 foot table. The only report where I didn't was against necrons.

So far I have found this list actually does better in Eternal War missions. As I dont need to control objectives until turn 5 (unlike maelstrom missions), which makes things easier when you are a reserve based army. Kill point in particular is something it excels at.

The army is comprised of four very durable units. The Talos are tough and easy to hide. (So can deny turns being shot at). The grotesques are in reserve so if I go second my opponent at most gets 5 turns to kill them assuming they come on turn 2 and the game ends on turn 7. If you look at this game my opponent only gets to engage my grotesques for one turn, turn 5 and its on my terms. The game is finite, so it doesn't matter how much shooting you have if you don't have enough turns to kill the unit. In kill point games I tend to get first blood and a kill point then all I have to do to win is not have any units die. Which isn't that hard when your units are so resilient.

As for other eternal war mission, I might not have objective secure, but I can kill most units that contest in assault in a turn, so going second makes objective secure moot. If I go first my opponent better be sure the game ends when he contests.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Kill point games are horrible for normal dark eldar, I fought a tau farsight list to a standstill on Thursday, he only had one crisis team alive at the end cowering out of range (though I didn't have much left either) but still won by 4 points thanks to me starting the game with 14 kill points on the board to his 8.

Yeah its rough when that happens. Its one of the few drawbacks to MSU.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
This list would be fine, it's only got 6 kill points so has every opportunity of doing well. The key thing is just negating the tactical flexibility of movement, which you do by layering your offense. Spread the grot units out so that when they arrive they're between 12" and 18" from the enemy, with a second layer behind them by about 12" (the talos). Your opponent then has to boost away from you, because if they overfly your first layer by enough to be out of charge range they're smack in front of your second layer.

This is a very good point. Layering is a powerful tool for negating your opponents mobility and its pretty easy to do with large units and pinpoint deep strike.

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Sat Mar 14 2015, 20:41

@Mushkilla wrote:


@Panic_Puppet wrote:
I'll try and get a game this weekend with my newest toy though.

Dark Artisan?

Second Talos. Didn't get to game today though (too busy) and not sure when I'll get one Sad. The list looks pretty hard. I hate playing Kill Points with DE, but since you only have a maximum of 5 kill points available pre-tabling it's pretty hard to beat.

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Sat Mar 14 2015, 21:33

Talos are very underated they were good last edition, but even better now that they start with FNP and can be run pairs/triplets.

On another note I just realised manticores are not allowed to use direct fire. Meaning they can't shoot targets within 24" (their minimum range). This makes them practically useless against WWP grots. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Sun Mar 15 2015, 07:58

Did they change the Manticore?


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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Sun Mar 15 2015, 09:05

@Septimus wrote:
Did they change the Manticore?

Storm eagle rockets can never be fired directly (they must always use indirect fire). In 7th edition you cannot fire indirectly and targets within your minimum range, you can only fire directly at them. As a result manticores can't fire at targets within their minimum range of 24". So the Astra Militarums greatest threat to my Grotesques (outside of super heavies) is inert as long as I'm within its minimum range. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Sun Mar 15 2015, 15:14

Okay, so they did change the Manticore, or at least it's main weapon rules... quite a change from the former dex! Smile


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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Sun Mar 15 2015, 18:11

Storm eagle rockets might have had that restriction in the old codex too, but I don't have it to hand to check. The big change is from 6th to 7th. In 6th you had to use indirect fire when firing within minimum range. Where as in 7th its the opposite you have to use direct fire within minimum range. So in 6th you could fire the manticore within 24" it was just inacurate in 7th you cant fire it at all. This change has interesting effect on a lot of artillery, for example the basilisc can't shoot at units out of line of sight that are within its minimum range of 36", as it has to use direct fire which requires line of sight.

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Sun Mar 15 2015, 21:26

@Mushkilla wrote:
Storm eagle rockets might have had that restriction in the old codex too, but I don't have it to hand to check. The big change is from 6th to 7th. In 6th you had to use indirect fire when firing within minimum range. Where as in 7th its the opposite you have to use direct fire within minimum range. So in 6th you could fire the manticore within 24" it was just inacurate in 7th you cant fire it at all. This change has interesting effect on a lot of artillery, for example the basilisc can't shoot at units out of line of sight that are within its minimum range of 36", as it has to use direct fire which requires line of sight.

Which is great since basilisk' minimum range is mahoosive!

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Mon Mar 16 2015, 15:45

That is not right - quoted from rulebook: Barrage weapons can fire indirectly. This means they can fire at a target they do not have line of sight to, as long as the target is beyond their minimum range (if applicable). .... If a barrage weapon has line of sight to its target it can fire directly, even if the target is within its minimum range.

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Mon Mar 16 2015, 16:28

@Septimus wrote:
That is not right - quoted from rulebook: Barrage weapons can fire indirectly. This means they can fire at a target they do not have line of sight to, as long as the target is beyond their minimum range (if applicable).    .... If a barrage weapon has line of sight to its target it can fire directly, even if the target is within its minimum range.

That's what we were saying, but the manticore isn't allowed to fire directly (apparently, I don't have the codex)

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Mon Mar 16 2015, 16:36

Quote :
In 6th you had to use indirect fire when firing within minimum range.

This had me confused - as I've never seen anyone play it like that.

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Mon Mar 16 2015, 17:36

OK guys my next game is against Imperial Knights:

click to see list:
 

Thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts   Mon Mar 16 2015, 18:44

If you can somehow play the mission you might have a chance - whatever you do, stay far away from cc, as the stomps will get you sooner or later.

With no sacrificial units, except maybe your Talos, I don't see how you can beat that army if he knows that you can't really touch him in cc.

Last time I fought a Knight, it stomped my Dark artisan formation to death: rolled 3 stomps, 2 were 6's... squished in a single cc phase -.-


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