HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in
Share | 
 

 Codex Harlequins Review

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
AuthorMessage
The Red King
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1130
Join date : 2013-07-09

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 11:06

Maybe I'm just nit picking but I feel like you could stand to tone done the language in some of your posts Hero. I'm not trying to mod (I know that's exactly what's happening) but I find your blatant disregard for the rules of conduct almost as disappointing as your sweeping statement that "assault is dead and anyone who disagrees is wrong".

I bet the people who won the LVO didn't get there by crunching numbers and listening to people like you tell them how bad everything is.

This isn't a review, it's a rant, at least title your posts appropriately so as not to mislead. Hint; I'd use the word biased in there somewhere.

_________________
For Khaela Mensha Khaine!
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 6709
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 11:56

Although there don't appear to be any posts reported in this topic I'm going to agree with The Red King and ask everyone to keep it civil when posting. Thanks - Count Adhemar

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
Lord Mal
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 54
Join date : 2015-02-26

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 15:29

I didn't learn anything from this thread due to the fact that I assumed Eldar that are dressed as clowns would have T3 with 5+ save. What are the synergies from the list? What unit sizes are best for what units? Is there any other movement tricks the army gives since obviously the only way to make anything work that is both fragile and Melee is speed and other gadgets?

Basically the article can be summed up with "You could take a unit, but then you could instead take the best choice in the game for that spot in another army, so just take the best choice in the game for that spot". I guess everyone in the world should just play the same army with the same list.
Back to top Go down
Skunty
Slave


Posts : 11
Join date : 2013-03-18

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 16:33

HERO wrote:

Second, assault is dead, especially in competitive play.

Tell that the eldar player that lost to the eventual LVO winner because his waveserpents got punched out of the air by lictors (pretty sure I heard about that in one of the post LVO interviews).

I agree with you that a straight up assault army with the singular goal of crossing the battlefield to reach CC is an outdated and ultimately futile goal.

Armies increasingly through the last two editions have needed to evolve to have a blend of offensive potential. Whether that comes from straight up shooting + (counter) assault or from other (for want of a better word) gimmicks like unique overwatch mechanisms (Tau), unconventional redeployment (gate of infinity), or upgraded versions of shooting (grav/ignores cover). Essentially what it boils down to is an army being able to bring something unique to the battlefield to gain competative advantage. I (and I suspect many others here) will be looking at this codex not from a standpoint of what is the best unit (singular) that can be taken. Instead looking from a standpoint of what does this army bring to the table that I can't get from anywhere else and in this respect I believe there are some very powerful attributes:

Fast, resilient haywire.

Scoring fast skimmers with a small profile (akin to venoms but marginally more resiliant).

Unique armour ignoring instant death weaponry.

Threats from both psychic powers and shooting that target leadership instead of toughness and armour.

A standard troop choice that can (from their transport) charge anywhere up to 30 inches ignoring all intervening terrain and on the same turn potentially hit and run out of combat by another 18 inches.

Unique defensive traits/buffs that include immunity from shooting beyond 24 inches, skimmers and jetbikes with a rerollable 4+ (or even a 2+) cover save, sergeant level characters with 2+ look out sir, access to invisibility and reverse invisibility (fog of dreams).

Warlord traits that include playing on beyond the end of the game, choosing to end the game or extend it a turn if needed and forcing the opponent to deploy first whilst facing a seizing of the initiative on a 2 up.
Back to top Go down
HERO
Wych
avatar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2012-04-13

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 16:39

Massaen wrote:
I will also point out the Lynx is terrible vs invisible Death Stars as it can't target the death star with this power active!

ITC, Broadside Bash, and LVO allows blast weapons to be fired at BS1 vs. Invisibility.  It's a good equalizer vs. deathstars.

Count Adhemar wrote:
If you regard assault as dead then Troupes are purely a tax, and an expensive one at that. If you just want to get some S6 shooting into a DE army then surely you would be better served just taking Eldar allies and ignoring the Harlequins completely? If you ignore the transport capacity of the Starweaver then it's really not much better than a twin-cannon Vyper and it's vastly inferior to the Wave Serpent (what isn't?).

That's exactly my point.

Quote :
Tell that the eldar player that lost to the eventual LVO winner because his waveserpents got punched out of the air by lictors (pretty sure I heard about that in one of the post LVO interviews).

Wave Serpents don't hit back, and cost 3-4x as much as a single Lictor. The list was designed to overwhelm WS spam, and you can pressure/hunt all of them into a corner because shooting a 200 point WS into a single Lictor in cover is a waste.

Assault is dead, and this is about context, or should be, in a logical argument. A unit of Troupe geared for combat isn't the same as a Lictor, not even close. Lictors are like mini Solitares with guaranteed S6 and cost a fraction of the points, taken as solo units, with Stealth and Infiltrate, and there's a ton of them.

_________________
HERO's Gaming Blog
A webway to better gaming


Last edited by HERO on Tue Mar 10 2015, 16:49; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 6709
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 16:48

Interesting review here which seems to take a very different view of the codex, again from a competitive player.

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
HERO
Wych
avatar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2012-04-13

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 17:00

Count Adhemar wrote:
Interesting review here which seems to take a very different view of the codex, again from a competitive player.

I don't see how it's a very different take, aside from the fact he gives a nod to Harlequin weapons and greater emphasis on leadership/psychic gimmicks.  At the end of the day, well..

AbusePuppy wrote:
Quote :
Is this combo going to break the tournament scene? No, I don't think so- it doesn't have a lot of utility against Knights, Serpents, or Flyrants (all of which are still highly relevant parts of the meta) and it's contingent on passing a bunch of psychic powers, which the enemy can easily shut down if they have dice of their own. The Shadowseer has no protection against Perils and thus is likely to die pretty easily most games, and all it really takes is one good turn of shooting for the enemy to vaporize your gimmick unit. So no, it's not going to revolutionize the game, but it is a pretty nasty trick that you'll want to keep an eye out for, especially if you're playing an army that is vulnerable to its abilities.

The End
Harlequins are, all things considered, a fairly alright release. The army doesn't really do what GW thinks it does very well (get in close and assault/shoot), but that's hardly surprising- GW's perception of what models are good at has never been anything but skewed. However, the models are pretty, the fluff isn't atrocious, and the abilities are interesting enough for players to do some cool tricks with, so in the end I can't be too sad about it. While I find the limitations on the Masque detachment rather silly- why such an extremely-particular setup? why not just make it more like other optional detachments?- the formations offer enough variety in ways to field Harlequins that even players just looking for a small add-on force won't be disappointed. I think we can safely call this a marked improvement over some of the other mini-codices that we've seen.

Quote :
I bet the people who won the LVO didn't get there by crunching numbers and listening to people like you tell them how bad everything is.

This isn't a review, it's a rant, at least title your posts appropriately so as not to mislead. Hint; I'd use the word biased in there somewhere.

No, they did so out of practice with other good gamers taking tried and true lists. And this is not a rant, it's factually based off of years of experience, frequent talks with top gamers in the country, and a firm understanding of the metgame and tournament scene. The tone of the article and this discussion is not overall positive, but I would hardly call it a rant.

_________________
HERO's Gaming Blog
A webway to better gaming
Back to top Go down
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/
Skunty
Slave


Posts : 11
Join date : 2013-03-18

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 18:23

HERO wrote:
Wave Serpents don't hit back, and cost 3-4x as much as a single Lictor.  The list was designed to overwhelm WS spam, and you can pressure/hunt all of them into a corner because shooting a 200 point WS into a single Lictor in cover is a waste.

Assault is dead, and this is about context, or should be, in a logical argument.

Can't reconcile this conclusion based on your own interpretation of the example provided.

You seem determined to defend your stance that assault (or the threat of assault) is not worthy of consideration and as such the Harlequin army should be considered only on the merits of it's shooting. Perhaps preface your articles to this effect?
Back to top Go down
HERO
Wych
avatar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2012-04-13

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 19:01

Skunty wrote:
HERO wrote:
Wave Serpents don't hit back, and cost 3-4x as much as a single Lictor.  The list was designed to overwhelm WS spam, and you can pressure/hunt all of them into a corner because shooting a 200 point WS into a single Lictor in cover is a waste.

Assault is dead, and this is about context, or should be, in a logical argument.

Can't reconcile this conclusion based on your own interpretation of the example provided.

You seem determined to defend your stance that assault (or the threat of assault) is not worthy of consideration and as such the Harlequin army should be considered only on the merits of it's shooting. Perhaps preface your articles to this effect?

I don't know man, I said assault is dead, you said no it's not see Lictors vs. Wave Serpents, and while yes, the Lictor is assaulting, it's a whole 'nother beast entirely. I will say that if you want to be really technical, then no, assault is not entirely dead since things like DraigoPaladins and Grots can still meatpunch something in the face really hard. For me, and many others, super fragile assault units has been very unsuccessful.

Honestly, I don't hold Harlequin shooting to high regards either because the Wave Serpent exists. So I guess all that's left is to just play the game and enjoy it how you see fit. We will disagree for days, so let's just leave it at that. I don't think either of us will find purchase at this point.

In other news, Adepticon is in two weeks or so, that should be really fun for all those wanting to experiment with Harlequins.

_________________
HERO's Gaming Blog
A webway to better gaming
Back to top Go down
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/
Caldria
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 167
Join date : 2011-12-22

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 20:04

Granted, I don't expect to see much harlequin success at adepticon - the codex has been out for too short of a time period for people to really playtest it properly. I'm more interested in seeing how Dark Eldar in general perform at adepticon, as the new DE codex is actually still relatively young in the competitive scene. It's been out what, 4-5 months I think? With only 1 or 2 major tourney's since then I think - though I'm probably forgetting some.
Back to top Go down
Grimcrimm
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 157
Join date : 2014-10-15

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 20:36

I see more use out of giving all the harlies nuerodisruptors or fusion guns than throwing them in assault.
WWP archon shadowfield Blaster with a slew of psychotic clowns with fusion pistols should scare off alot and for an added expense give everyone a kiss. now you have something expensive and aslong as the archon is tanking maye survivable, they can melt an mc or vehicle posthaste too.

their offensive ability is astounding BUT their defensive options are nonexistent (For troupes).

The amount of 1 use items in harlequins is ridiculous, this is the first time since 5th edition dark eldar that ive seen someone call an army a finesse army and i agreed with them. I think the only thing that screwed these guys in the dex is no HQ, not being able to take them as allied detatchment is a sham (Not shame a SHAM).

i like these guys but they werent given a fair chance, i see them getting passed over alot in the near future (too hard to take) with a huge lack of ways to play them they are too straight forward for their own good.

I can only hope other codexes get warlord trait options like this one.


_________________
I dig the salt mines deeper (Babyhammer 40k) and now introducing "The big book of buffs" Brought to you by Tau "cant keep em in melee AND they will shoot you dead"
Back to top Go down
HERO
Wych
avatar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2012-04-13

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 21:08

I think we would see a lot more Harlequins in the mix if their formations weren't so restrictive.  For example, a Wraithguard unit with Farseer, WWP Archon (Misery) with Shadowfield, Spiritseer and Shadowseer (Mask) would be a HUGE problem for a lot of armies.  It's a Deathstar for sure, but it comes down wherever it wants, shoots and kills whatever it wants, and then walks across the map rinsing and repeating.

The only problem here is that you cannot get a Shadowseer on the cheap, no way.
Masque detachment, expensive
Cegorach's Revenge, even more expensive
Serpent's Brood, no option for Shadowseer
Cast of Players, cannot break off Shadowseer to form the Deathstar
Cegorach's Jest, no option for Shadowseer
The Heroes' Path, cannot join units
Faolchu's Blade, no option for Shadowseer

So realistically, the only way to get a Shadowseer is from the Masque Detachment, which at a minimum, costs you 500 points before the seer itself.  This level of restriction is completely unneeded, and what's keeping the majority of the army from even supporting competitive lists.  We're talking about something that costs more than a Lynx here, which is a pretty hefty commitment.

Cast of Players isn't bad if you want to take a dedicated assault unit.
Heroes' Path isn't bad if you want to troll the enemy with some characters.
Faolchu's Blade can be good since you can re-roll cover saves.
Serpent's Brood is OK, but you don't get Rising Crescendo so I think Masque is generally better because it's pretty flexible.

_________________
HERO's Gaming Blog
A webway to better gaming
Back to top Go down
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/
Caldria
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 167
Join date : 2011-12-22

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 21:19

I wish that The Heroes' Path allowed the ICs to join units, but then maybe forfeited their stealth/shrouded or infiltrate rules or something. I think that would be the most used formation then. It wouldn't even be broken either if it were to allow that.
Back to top Go down
HERO
Wych
avatar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2012-04-13

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 21:34

Caldria wrote:
I wish that The Heroes' Path allowed the ICs to join units, but then maybe forfeited their stealth/shrouded or infiltrate rules or something. I think that would be the most used formation then. It wouldn't even be broken either if it were to allow that.

I also wish you can use Kiss and Caress at the same time, but GW isn't known for their rules after all.

_________________
HERO's Gaming Blog
A webway to better gaming
Back to top Go down
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/
Caldria
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 167
Join date : 2011-12-22

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 21:45

hah, it would be awesome to get 7-11 potential S6 ap2 hits and 1 guaranteed S6 ap2 hit with potential ID. At this point though I don't see the reason for ever using the  kiss. Maybe the combat turn after the charge, if ur in combat with a wraithknight or something. I still feel like the caress would be better though.

I've been seeing some people ruling it as being able to use both - though history dictates that you wouldn't be able to I guess.
Back to top Go down
Mononcule
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 155
Join date : 2014-03-01

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 22:05

I have a really naive question here: is Unbound an option?

Harlequins being an "assault" army, they ignore terrain, charge through cover, have options to bypass overwatch (pinning, shroud/stealth spell) so removing a camping unit from an objective shouldnt be impossible, so maybe Obj Sec is less needed?
Back to top Go down
HERO
Wych
avatar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2012-04-13

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 23:02

Mononcule wrote:
I have a really naive question here: is Unbound an option?

Harlequins being an "assault" army, they ignore terrain, charge through cover, have options to bypass overwatch (pinning, shroud/stealth spell) so removing a camping unit from an objective shouldnt be impossible, so maybe Obj Sec is less needed?

You really want objsec for mission flexibility. Unbound means you're dead set on killing the opponent, which is always an option, but will not win you games since the army is so fragile and has no real sustain.

_________________
HERO's Gaming Blog
A webway to better gaming
Back to top Go down
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/
Sigmaril
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 340
Join date : 2014-11-28

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 23:09

ObSec is not an option for Harlequins even when battle Forged, is it?
Back to top Go down
Caldria
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 167
Join date : 2011-12-22

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Tue Mar 10 2015, 23:09

Well, harlequins will never have Obsec anyway - so ur not losing what you never had. Though if you would be allying them with a CAD, then you'd lose Obsec from that. But taking harlies unbound loses you their main ability to run and charge in the same turn as well as all the other cool detachment bonuses (though, Realspace Raiders bonus isn't that great) and obsec from CADs.
Back to top Go down
The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2501
Join date : 2012-01-16
Location : Rutland - UK

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Wed Mar 11 2015, 00:15

Interestingly though, if you go unbound, you can still take formations, which still get the command benefits of the formation.

_________________
Tan? You're joking, I'm a gamer, you're lucky I'm wearing deodorant!

My Blog - The Burning Eye Blog (check it out - comments always welcome)

My Project Log - Visions of the Burning Eye

My Gaming Log - Chronicles of the Burning Eye

My Club - MAD Wargaming

My Fluff - Kabal of the Burning Eye, Cult of the Shadowed Blade and Coven of Distorted Perfection
Back to top Go down
http://theburningeye.blogspot.com
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 6709
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Wed Mar 11 2015, 07:01

I thought the whole point of going unbound was that the 'quin formations were too restrictive?

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
HERO
Wych
avatar

Posts : 546
Join date : 2012-04-13

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Wed Mar 11 2015, 07:26

Count Adhemar wrote:
I thought the whole point of going unbound was that the 'quin formations were too restrictive?

True, if you're playing casually, but most events don't allow Unbound. I mean after all, if you're playing casually with friends then none of this stuff should even matter. Just throw down and do whatever.

_________________
HERO's Gaming Blog
A webway to better gaming
Back to top Go down
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/
Mononcule
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 155
Join date : 2014-03-01

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Wed Mar 11 2015, 11:28

HERO wrote:
Count Adhemar wrote:
I thought the whole point of going unbound was that the 'quin formations were too restrictive?

True, if you're playing casually, but most events don't allow Unbound.  I mean after all, if you're playing casually with friends then none of this stuff should even matter.  Just throw down and do whatever.

While I understand your point, I'm pretty sure there is some gap on the competitive scale between "Major Tournament competitive" and "Kitchen table casual game with footslogging wyches only". Maybe for example games against competitive friends, or games in your local store?

Also, is it true that you can use formations in an undound army? And keeping the command benefits? It's not the way I undertsand the rulebook.

If it's possible, you can use a DE CAD and just add a lone unbound Death jester to them?
Back to top Go down
Massaen
Klaivex
avatar

Posts : 2249
Join date : 2011-07-05
Location : Western Australia

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Wed Mar 11 2015, 11:36

Formations retain command benefits in unbound. A CAD is not a formation though

_________________
Objective Secured - Western Australia's Premier 40k Event Organisers and Website
OBJECTIVE SECURED
Back to top Go down
http://objectivesecured.com.au/
The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2501
Join date : 2012-01-16
Location : Rutland - UK

PostSubject: Re: Codex Harlequins Review   Wed Mar 11 2015, 12:41

Yeah its specific to formations (so Dark Artisan, Grotesquerie etc) not detachments that don't specify the units you must take.

To use your example mononcule - as soon as you add an unbound death jester to the CAD, you lose objective secured. Take an unbound death jester with a dark artisan however and the dark artisan operates exactly the way it does in the book.

As such, if you're building a coven force using formations there's no reason not to add something like a death jester, provided whoever you're playing against is ok playing an unbound army.

_________________
Tan? You're joking, I'm a gamer, you're lucky I'm wearing deodorant!

My Blog - The Burning Eye Blog (check it out - comments always welcome)

My Project Log - Visions of the Burning Eye

My Gaming Log - Chronicles of the Burning Eye

My Club - MAD Wargaming

My Fluff - Kabal of the Burning Eye, Cult of the Shadowed Blade and Coven of Distorted Perfection
Back to top Go down
http://theburningeye.blogspot.com
 
Codex Harlequins Review
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 3 of 5Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

GENERAL DARK ELDAR DISCUSSION

 :: Dark Eldar Discussion
-
Jump to: