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Omega1907
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PostSubject: Rising Crescendo and IC   Mon Mar 02 2015, 21:09

Greetings,

it's quite possible that I miss something here ... but: The formation special rule states, that all units from that formation can run and charge from turn 2 onwards, does this include any IC that joins a unit with that special rule?

I know, that some rules translate to the unit/IC and other not, which case is this?

Quote :
From the start of the second turn, all unitsin this detachment/formation that have the fleet special rule can run and charge in the same turn.

The reason behind this is, that I want to join a succubus with troupe from Cegorach's Jest, as I don't know where else I should put a HQ in a list I'm currently writing Sad

Thanks in advance


ps: I'm really sorry if that was asked before, but I couldn't find anything (even similar)
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Mon Mar 02 2015, 22:56

I'd say the Succubus benefits from Rising Crescendo.

Quote :
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

She's part of the Harlequin unit 'for all rules purposes'.

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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Mon Mar 02 2015, 22:59

As the rule is worded it says "All units with fleet _from this detachment_ ..." can do stuff. That means that only Harlequin units that are part of that specific detachment/formation will get the benefit. This includes ICs like Death Jesters and Shadow Seers, but any characters from outside that Harlequin detachment, i.e. your Succubus/Archon/Haemonculus will not get the benefit, since he wasn't purchased as part of the detachment.

Sorry.

Edit: I'd need to see the exact quote from the book to prove/falsify what Adhemar has said.
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Omega1907
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Mon Mar 02 2015, 23:54

I quoted the rule, there is no difference between the masque detachment and the formation wording apart from "detachment" turns into "formation".

While the succubus isn't part of the formation, she IS part of the unit when she joins it.

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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Tue Mar 03 2015, 01:22

Well, the rule still says detachment and/or formation.
I mean, I guess it could be argued that because she is an IC, the Succubus becomes the part of the Harlequin unit which is from the detachment and/or formation - and as per the IC rules: she is for all intents and purposes, a model that makes up the "Harlequin unit"

she has fleet and would then get Rising Crescendo's benefits.

But I'd probably say it wouldn't work - at least until an FAQ ever addresses the issue.
She still wasn't "from" the Masque Detachment or formations. I'd definitely want it to be true - but I don't think it works.
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Tue Mar 03 2015, 05:13

It seems to me it would need to be expressly stated if they can't benefit from it. Similar to how fleet works. The precedent is there and it's kind of counter intuitive to RAI in an entire sentence when the rule simply works better as written.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Tue Mar 03 2015, 09:14

@Caldria wrote:
Well, the rule still says detachment and/or formation.
I mean, I guess it could be argued that because she is an IC, the Succubus becomes the part of the Harlequin unit which is from the detachment and/or formation - and as per the IC rules: she is for all intents and purposes, a model that makes up the "Harlequin unit"

This is exactly the point. She is part of the unit and it is the unit that gains the benefits from the formation. If Rising Crescendo said "All models from this detachment/formation..." then she would not gain the benefit but as it says unit then RAW she 100% does.

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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Tue Mar 03 2015, 09:44

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Caldria wrote:
Well, the rule still says detachment and/or formation.
I mean, I guess it could be argued that because she is an IC, the Succubus becomes the part of the Harlequin unit which is from the detachment and/or formation - and as per the IC rules: she is for all intents and purposes, a model that makes up the "Harlequin unit"

This is exactly the point. She is part of the unit and it is the unit that gains the benefits from the formation. If Rising Crescendo said "All models from this detachment/formation..." then she would not gain the benefit but as it says unit then RAW she 100% does.

I'm really torn on this one - to my mind it's clearly not intended to allow a character from another detachment to gain the benefit, but I'm inclined to agree that RAW Count is correct. I'd add though that i'd disagree with count if the rule was written to state that all units from this detachment/formation get the benefit, since she is a unit chosen from a different detachment (I work on the basis that the IC is still a unit, but effectively a unit within a unit, since they still award kill points etc when part of a unit that's wiped out)

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Omega1907
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Tue Mar 03 2015, 11:42

Glad I'm not the only one who's doubtful of the ruling Smile

RAW it seems clear, as the Succubus fulfills all prerequisites to benefit from rising crescendo (fleet and part of the unit).

RAI is a bit harder to solve, as I sadly (gladly?) have no psychic powers. So I can't say, if the author intended that use or not. While I like the idea of the clowns sticking to themselves, there are a few mentions in the fluff, that they accept outsiders for special performances/expeditions (Path of the Outcast, Mask of Vyle).

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

I'm really torn on this one - to my mind it's clearly not intended to allow a character from another detachment to gain the benefit, but I'm inclined to agree that RAW Count is correct. I'd add though that i'd disagree with count if the rule was written to state that all units from this detachment/formation get the benefit, since she is a unit chosen from a different detachment (I work on the basis that the IC is still a unit, but effectively a unit within a unit, since they still award kill points etc when part of a unit that's wiped out)

I understand your argument about unit within a unit, but as you wrote, it's within the bonds of the unit. Lets say, for example, you see a truck that drives with a set speed, the cargo within also travels with that speed if you look from the outside, but on the inside the cargo doesn't move (accidents ignored Rolling Eyes )
What I want to say, while the succubus is part of the unit, the rules for the unit get precedence, where they aren't sufficient, the rules for the individual model are used. At least, that would be my interpretation.
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Tue Mar 03 2015, 11:56

@Omega - I see what you're saying, which is why I am currently of the opinion that the Succubus would benefit.

However.

In fluff terms it makes no sense. the command benefits of a formation are there to represent circumstances particular to that formation (so for example the grotesquerie has been experimented on and altered beyond the 'normal' level for grotesques). In this case, that would be having been trained specifically to move more rapidly than is usually the case when charging an enemy unit. The Succubus clearly won't have been subject to that training/conditioning and so there is no justification for allowing her to move any faster than she normally would*.

*I'm not saying that she shouldn't be allowed to, because I think it's entirely appropriate for her to move that fast, just that her existing rules don't allow her to.

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Omega1907
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Tue Mar 03 2015, 12:05

Good point, now I can't delete the picture of an haemy (with the sump for fleet, but what's that really?) making backflips in concert with some clowns Laughing

back to topic: I understand the formation benefits, but rising crescendo seems to be a more general rule for the 'quins (fluffwise). Maybe they are an inspiration to run faster? Or they are a distraction with all their holosuits, that the unit can charge more recklessly (which would explain the rule in the first place)?

But to summarize: RAW it's possible, as long as no FAQ/errata appears, so my DE CAD has a useful HQ (more or less) cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Tue Mar 03 2015, 19:08

RAW doesn't seem as clear as being stated above. Arr they one unit, yes. Clearly. Are they a unit from the formation/detachment? That doesn't seem as clear to me. Does the Succubus taint that determination?

Separate from how people are playing it, the argument that RAW is clear doesn't seem so clear.

The ability of a Coven detachment to give fearless isn't given to all independent characters that join the unit bits simply that Fearless itself as a rule is conveyed if a single model has it. Not sure that last part was clear, but Fearless itself isn't conveyed to the other models in a unit. It is unit that benefits from a single model having the rule.

The ability to run doesn't say it conveys to anyone that joins the unit. And I'd imagine the "from the formation" part gets tainted by having a succubus.
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Omega1907
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Tue Mar 03 2015, 19:41

@Myrvn wrote:
RAW doesn't seem as clear as being stated above. Arr they one unit, yes. Clearly. Are they a unit from the formation/detachment? That doesn't seem as clear to me. Does the Succubus taint that determination?

So, the question is, which rules are considered first, unit or model specific? To my understanding, the unit rules get precedence. Would you say, it's possible to redeploy a troupe with a joined DE/CWE character with the warlord trait "A Trick of the Light"? Loses the troupe the faction because of a joined character? Does it change to the faction of the character? Or does it get both factions, in which case it can be redeployed, as it is still from the harlequin faction?
A Trick of the Light:
 
It's about another rule, but in essence it's the same topic, I guess ... if not, sorry for bringing it up Embarassed

While the rising crescendo rule relates to "units from the formation", it clearly doesn't say "models from the formation". That's a huge difference imo. Because of that, together with the already stated rule from the independent character rules "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters." I honestly don't see why it shouldn't be possible. The IC is treated as a normal character of the unit, as long as he had joined it.
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Omega1907
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Tue Mar 03 2015, 19:54

Sorry for double post, but I guess I found the argument (well, rule section) to end this discussion, sadly not in favor of the succubus:

BRB - Independent Characters wrote:
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from
those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the
unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the
Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that
are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with
them.

Can't give a page number, as I have the ebook version Sad

I guess "Rising Crescendo" is a special rule, so no running-along succubus for my clowns *sad face*
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Tue Mar 03 2015, 20:39

I'd day the same for trick of the light as well... Harlequins sound cool, but a lot of the super awesome tricks seem to be just for them. Synergy with DE seems cool, just not as cool as a solo army. Curious what others think on the rule interpretations.
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Tue Mar 03 2015, 21:08

Aaah, this is a tricky one - "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

"All" rules purposes.

Then your second post contradicts it a little I guess - but I don't know if it contradicts it enough. Maybe we'll get an FAQ about it - but with how ridiculously restrictive this harlequins release is already... I somehow doubt we'll get that little cherry..

I would love it to be true, however - it gives me a nice place to put my succubus that isn't a grot squad - while grots are great and all, and generally the better competitive choice, they're not elfy enough for the succubus haha. But I guess we maybe have to just stick her with Grots because it is "the competitive" choice (that is if we're aiming for competitive at least)

If you're playing for fun, I don't see why people wouldn't let you just take the rule to let her benefit from it, it's hardly gonna break the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Wed Mar 04 2015, 09:49

@Caldria wrote:
Aaah, this is a tricky one - "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

"All" rules purposes.

Then your second post contradicts it a little I guess - but I don't know if it contradicts it enough. Maybe we'll get an FAQ about it - but with how ridiculously restrictive this harlequins release is already... I somehow doubt we'll get that little cherry..

I would love it to be true, however - it gives me a nice place to put my succubus that isn't a grot squad - while grots are great and all, and generally the better competitive choice, they're not elfy enough for the succubus haha. But I guess we maybe have to just stick her with Grots because it is "the competitive" choice (that is if we're aiming for competitive at least)

If you're playing for fun, I don't see why people wouldn't let you just take the rule to let her benefit from it, it's hardly gonna break the game.

Those are two quotes from the BRB from the independant character rule, and yes, they contradict each other a bit No

For just a alternative for the grot babysitters, I'd use the cast of players I think. Not that much survivability, but can be quite killy (with double LD malus, you have a realistic chance of sweeping the enemy)

I could be easy in friendly games, to houserule for using the rule with the succubus, but even in friendly games I want to play as correctly as possible.

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Omega1907
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Mon Mar 09 2015, 10:54

Did a bit more Research and talked with a few people about that rule problem.

I found a comparision to the CAD and obj sec. If that rule wouldn't translate to the IC, an IC as part of a troop choice wouldn't be able to sec an obj against contesters (if it's the only model in 3"). While that example doesn't solve the problem, it could be more discussed on tournaments, as more people fielded a CAD then a clown formation/detachment in the past ...

Also talked to a few guys from a local warhammer Club, and they said, the succubus would benefit from the rule ...

So, I guess I have to ask before every game how my opponent wants to play that rule unless it's FAQed No

PS: sorry for reanimating that topic again, I just can't get it out of my head Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Thu Mar 19 2015, 20:17

@Omega1907 wrote:
Did a bit more Research and talked with a few people about that rule problem.

I found a comparision to the CAD and obj sec. If that rule wouldn't translate to the IC, an IC as part of a troop choice wouldn't be able to sec an obj against contesters (if it's the only model in 3"). While that example doesn't solve the problem, it could be more discussed on tournaments, as more people fielded a CAD then a clown formation/detachment in the past ...

Also talked to a few guys from a local warhammer Club, and they said, the succubus would benefit from the rule ...

So, I guess I have to ask before every game how my opponent wants to play that rule unless it's FAQed No

PS: sorry for reanimating that topic again, I just can't get it out of my head Evil or Very Mad

Hmmmmm I think this will really determine it then. I imagine most people play that if an IC is in a troop unit s/he would have ob. sec. I know I would have played it that way without question before this. Interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Rising Crescendo and IC   Fri Mar 20 2015, 05:15

Though it's still unclear either way, I'm leaning toward it not working. As a possible precedent, one of the other Formations (don't have Codex with me, but it's the one where the Troupes can use their Hit and Run move to embark vehicles) makes specific mention of attached Independent Characters gaining the benefit too. From memory it uses the word unit also.
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