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 Sslyth vs. Grotesque

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Mth
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 09 2015, 17:52

I am thinking of running the grotesquerie but with one heamy and a succubus. They are both in raider and by turn one the Pfp table for the grotesqueire they are fearless.
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Thu Mar 12 2015, 02:49

I have 5 Sslyth in my possession.

It will be a grand affair!
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Thu Mar 12 2015, 09:25

I don't think you can Disembark and Embark the same turn
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Thu Dec 10 2015, 12:19

How are people getting on with these 2 choices? Any more thoughts in the last 9 months?
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Sun Jan 03 2016, 13:21

My two cents on the subject:

Strictly speaking about the units as listed in Codex: Dark Eldar, Ssliz>Grots. They have 1w less, no poisoned weapons, no ID and no rampage, but are 10 points cheaper, have fleet, 5+save, arent bulky (what means the can get a venom), can shoot decently and fill a HQ slot. When I use them, I attach them to a Shadowseer in a venom. She gives them ld, they give her a sizable pool of T5 wounds.

That said, talking about Haemonculus Covens Grotesquerie formation grotesques vs Ssliz its a whole different matter. For 10p more you get, besides everything already said above, fearless almost right off the bat (what means you dont have to attach them an IC to make them usable) and later Fear, It will not die, zealot and even eternal warrior. PLUS, you get a combat drugs kind of table (latest experiments) that give amazing bonuses ranging from FnP4+, +1T, shred... At the end of the day, the get so many bonuses that 10p is not only worth it, but even cheap for what you're getting.



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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Sun Jan 03 2016, 13:56

Codex Grots are obviously reasonably poo, so just looking at comparing Grotesquerie to Sslyth.......

Assuming only 3 Grots and the required Raider and the Haemy "tax" you are looking at a minimum of 460 points for the 2 units. Let's just cut that in half, giving us 230 points to make a Sslyth unit out of. That's going to get you 5 Sslyth, 2 Lhameans in a Raider with Racks and NS (of course).

Aside from the +1 toughness drug, none of the others really improve considerably on Grots, so these can pretty much be ignored.

So we are looking at 18 attacks on the charge from the Grotesques (assuming +2 from Rampage) vs 24 attacks on the charge from the Sslyth unit. 9 wounds vs 10 wounds.

They are both correctly priced in my opinion, as far as the combat stats run. The thing that makes the difference, is that the Sslyth also put out a Venom's worth of shooting at 18" effectively for free. This is the alternative for having poisoned close combat attacks. The thing is, we don't have any issues with high toughness mobs, as we tend to have a ton of poison shots on the table anyway.

The deciding factor for me is that I don't want to take 2 units of these close combat monkeys in a 1500 point game. It's too many points spent. That basically discounts Grotesques from the majority of my games.

I prefer Sslyth, is what I'm trying to say Very Happy
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Sun Jan 03 2016, 16:32

I dont consider the haemonculus a tax as bonuses from the coven PFP table are shared with his unit except obviously IWND and EW, on top of that he brings +1 to PFP. You very well could buy a 3rd grotesque unit in the DE DAC and put the formation haemonculus on it you effectively have a Grot unit that benefits from the Codex: DE and Haemonculus Covens supplement PFP charts at the same time. It being a tax would be like saying the Tau buffcomander is a tax (saving the differences of course) Hell, you could even attach him to a Ssliz unit to give them fearless and later zealot and forget about Llhamaeans.

3 grotesquerie grotesques pack quite a punch. Min. 18 max. 24 attacks on the charge (counting rampage ones), eventually rerolling ones to hit and rerolling to wound on anything less than T5 with the possibility of causing ID plus another random bonus ranging from +1S to 4+ FnP only situational one being shred (and even then useful against the very common SM bikes) is far better than what Ssliz can put on the table against infantry.

Yes, I give you that Ssliz shoot better. But when we have empty venoms as a FA choice and 6 FA slots, I dont think Ssliz being able to ride in a venom will ever be relevant.

Against vehicles yeah, Ssliz are the same (and hence better becouse of the lowest point value) becouse most grotesque upgrades are only applied against things with T value, but in the grand scheme of things either of them are powerless against pretty much anything meta, and thats why IMO this discussion doesnt really matter, but thats not the point of the thread at hand.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Sun Jan 03 2016, 17:36

@Hellstrom wrote:
Aside from the +1 toughness drug, none of the others really improve considerably on Grots, so these can pretty much be ignored.

Depends what you're fighting - Shred/+1S are both very useful if you're facing T5 enemies, and the former also helps you against vehicles. Fleet puts them on equal footing with the Sslyth in terms of speed.

@Hellstrom wrote:

They are both correctly priced in my opinion, as far as the combat stats run.  The thing that makes the difference, is that the Sslyth also put out a Venom's worth of shooting at 18" effectively for free.  This is the alternative for having poisoned close combat attacks.  The thing is, we don't have any issues with high toughness mobs, as we tend to have a ton of poison shots on the table anyway.

One thing worth remembering is that poisoned melee attacks give rerolls (so, against T4, those grots are wounding on 3s with rerolls), but poison shooting doesn't.

@Hellstrom wrote:

The deciding factor for me is that I don't want to take 2 units of these close combat monkeys in a 1500 point game.  It's too many points spent.  That basically discounts Grotesques from the majority of my games.

I'm the same. I also dislike the 'concentration' of points, as someone who prefers MSU.

Out of interest, do you think Sslyth are even worth having? As opposed to just buying a Lhamaean in a venom, say.

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
I dont consider the haemonculus a tax

I do. IMO he's practically the definition of an HQ tax.

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
as bonuses from the coven PFP table are shared with his unit except obviously IWND and EW, on top of that he brings +1 to PFP. You very well could buy a 3rd grotesque unit in the DE DAC and put the formation haemonculus on it you effectively have a Grot unit that benefits from the Codex: DE and Haemonculus Covens supplement PFP charts at the same time.

Which would be great if the normal chart wasn't pants. Also, I really don't consider +1 PfP a good bonus. Not when the entire PfP table feels like a tax to begin with. "Oh look, by the end of the game your units might actually be allowed all their special rules."

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
It being a tax would be like saying the Tau buffcomander is a tax

Except that the Buffmander's abilities are vastly better and, more importantly, available immediately. If he had to wait until turn 4 before he could give his unit twin-linked, and turn 5 before he could give his unit Ignores Cover, I somehow doubt he'd be seen in the same light. Furthermore, if you decide not to use his support ability he can still bring some excellent firepower. Not to mention that they can easily be T5 with 4 wounds and a 2+/4+ save - allowing them to tank S8-9 hits for their squads. Haemonculi, in contrast, have pathetic shooting, pathetic melee and pathetic toughness (so, rather than tanking wounds for their squad, they need their squad to tank wounds for them).
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Sun Jan 03 2016, 17:52

A "Sslythstar" in a Raider with Splinter Racks has a lot of mid-ranged firepower, and is not easy to kill even for Marines. But they don't pack as much of a punch as Grotesques overall.
The main purpose of Sslyth is to be an Archon's flexible meat shields; a defensive-supportive unit, not a death star.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Sun Jan 03 2016, 18:02

@Rokuro wrote:
The main purpose of Sslyth is to be an Archon's flexible meat shields; a defensive-supportive unit, not a death star.

I find it interesting you say that, given that when I asked about Sslyth a while back the main response I got was that people used them instead of an Archon. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Sun Jan 03 2016, 22:28

@The Shredder wrote:
@Rokuro wrote:
The main purpose of Sslyth is to be an Archon's flexible meat shields; a defensive-supportive unit, not a death star.

I find it interesting you say that, given that when I asked about Sslyth a while back the main response I got was that people used them instead of an Archon. Razz

Most of us would use a teletubby instead of an Archon though so that's not really saying much!

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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Sun Jan 03 2016, 22:55

What model do you use to built a Sslyth? The official one isn't that cheap...
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Sun Jan 03 2016, 23:29

@CptMetal wrote:
What model do you use to built a Sslyth? The official one isn't that cheap...

Aliexpress. That is all Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Jan 04 2016, 00:00

I love the grotesquerie but if i feel they are too much of a points sink, ie. in lower points games, a unit of slyth is still a tough, flexible option.

Not to everyone's taste but i find they can do work.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Jan 04 2016, 07:22

@The Shredder wrote:
I find it interesting you say that, given that when I asked about Sslyth a while back the main response I got was that people used them instead of an Archon. Razz

Well, I wouldn't do that. Sslyth may be stronger than Dark Eldar, but their leadership is awful. They need a character (or at least a Lhamaean) so they don't die like flies to a Psychic Shriek or run away after a bad round in close combat.
So Sslyth and Archon even out eachother's weaknesses in order to stay alive. If I want my HQ to be harder to kill, I make sure the majority of my court are Sslyth. But if I want a unit that kills things in close combat, I would take a couple of Grotesques along with a Succubus, possibly even ones from a Grotesquery.


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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Jan 04 2016, 09:21

What about Clawed Fiends? theyre 30p each, beasts (what saves you the point cost of a transport) and basically the same profile (T5, S5, low ld) but 6 attacks on the charge instead of 5, I5 instead of 4 but and WS3 instead of 4, what will be the same hitting but worse getting hit at in most cases.

3 grotesquerie grots in raider and 3 ssliz + 2 llhamaeans in venom are both 160p. For that point cost we can take an unit of 5 Clawed fiends + 1 Beastmaster.

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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Jan 04 2016, 09:41

Interesting idea too. I'll have a look at this alien express. What would you recommend for clawed fiends?
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Jan 04 2016, 11:16

Realspaceraiders MSU with 6 units of 3 clawed fiends + beastmaster (100p each, 600p total). Roll on the strategic trait to try and get stealth(Ruins) and you're ready to go. But as I said earlier all the units we're talking about struggle vs any meta list. I think you could scare a gravspam Kor'sarro gladius with a list based on this tho.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Jan 04 2016, 13:20

As our only 'tough' troops, they both have their pros and cons. If you really want something really smashy, pick the Grots. They're our best shock troops. If you want a little more flexibility, with some shooting, fleet, take a few Sslyth.

But you know what's better against Meq than either of these fatties? Medusae. Yeah, they're paper thin, like our entire army I guess. But those templates of Meq eating goodness are wonderful in small doses.

To be fair, I don't think they have the same role as Sslyth or Grotesques, but I think its much better to have 4 Sslyth and 1 Medusae than simply 5 Sslyth. That extra carbine does nothing, but even single shot on the ap3 template could change the game. Just food for thought.

Heck, I'd run Medusae in lieu of the "single Lmahaean" mandatory HQ slot. Imagine all she does on that Venom, plus 3-5 dead marines a game.

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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Jan 04 2016, 14:27

@hydranixx wrote:
As our only 'tough' troops, they both have their pros and cons. If you really want something really smashy, pick the Grots. They're our best shock troops. If you want a little more flexibility, with some shooting, fleet, take a few Sslyth.

But you know what's better against Meq than either of these fatties? Medusae. Yeah, they're paper thin, like our entire army I guess. But those templates of Meq eating goodness are wonderful in small doses.

To be fair, I don't think they have the same role as Sslyth or Grotesques, but I think its much better to have 4 Sslyth and 1 Medusae than simply 5 Sslyth. That extra carbine does nothing, but even single shot on the ap3 template could change the game. Just food for thought.

Heck, I'd run Medusae in lieu of the "single Lmahaean" mandatory HQ slot. Imagine all she does on that Venom, plus 3-5 dead marines a game.

This doesn't happen for me. Unless my Medusae are WWPing in, they never get into range of anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Jan 04 2016, 16:20

Medusae would be fine if they werent overprized to hell and back. Kabalite warrior statline with a S4 AP3 flamer for 25p. They will fire once and then roll over and die.

IMO Best use for them is to fill the HQ choice instead of the classic Llhamaean. 1, maybe 2 Medusae + Venom is 90-115p and you can maybe jumpscare some windriders if you come from DS.

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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Jan 04 2016, 18:24

That's why you put Medusae into a Raider. Deep Strike, kill, profit.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Jan 04 2016, 22:49

@CptMetal wrote:
That's why you put Medusae into a Raider. Deep Strike, kill, profit.

Bingo!

That's probably the best way to do it. A really satisfying, space-marine-player-removing-smug-grin-way. You can eat an entire 10 man team with just 2 or 3 of these puppies. Add in a wwp if you prefer more accuracy, or keep it cheep and cheerful - 2 in a deepstriking raider is only 105 points, but together they can threaten both TEQ in the open, and anything weaker even if its in cover.

I'll reiterate my previous point though; they're pretty nice on regular Venoms or Raiders, mixed in with Sslyths. They cover that leadership weakness well.

Basically, you only lose out on 1 wound and a few piddly splinter shots (as if we have a shortage of those), and you keep your majority toughness, FNP, all for the same points cost.

And yes, even a single template hit IS enough to justify its cost. Keep her at the back if they disembark or their transport dies, and she might live long enough to fire twice.

Don't forget she's great for overwatch; if ever you're charged, she will likely do more in that single overwatch than any single Sslyth can manage with his attacks. Kill a single marine with your template and then kill a single marine with overwatch? You've made back your points. And this is if the marine player gets lucky.

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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Jan 04 2016, 23:02

@CptMetal wrote:
That's why you put Medusae into a Raider. Deep Strike, kill, profit.

Alternatively, deep strike, scatter into the enemy you were trying to flame, mishap, swear profusely under your breath, watch your opponent place your raider out of flamer range, swear out loud. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Jan 04 2016, 23:13

A medusae or 2 mixed in with slyth is ace!

Massive increase in fire and LD with the toughness, cc punch and splinter of the slyth.

@ BizarreShowbizz

Only reason i havn't tried clawed fiends is that they compete with other awesome choices in the FA slots. Even my RSR det is full of reavers and scourges and a razorwing
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