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 Sslyth vs. Grotesque

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 16:59

@solar shock wrote:
The second haemy is only a tax if its a tax within your lists, many lists i build want two, hence its not a tax Smile But as a side note, shredder i know you personally prefer a fluffy list, so i can understand not fancying two.

Burning, id say having a problem with taking 50pts and then stating you'd just deal with the inferior grots is a little contrary, not an attack on you, but id say drop them then. If you cant waste 50 points on another unit, then you certainly cant take something as sub-optimal as codex grots Wink Dont take that personally, but i think you'd be better off with some other units, or find somewhere to drop points and take the venom wracks and the supped up grots Smile Going half way seems like a bad idea. As you said you dont want to change the whole theme, so can i ask what role the grots play in your lists? Smile

It's not a 50pt tax though, it's 50 for the wracks, then 65 for the venom (ok, useful, but if I drop one of my existing venoms then I'm also dropping a blaster) and then, realistically, around 100 for the haemonculus. so at least 215 pts, which is more than i spend on the grots in the first place.

Thing is, yes the grots are inferior to coven ones (in particular grotesquerie ones) but they're still better than any other assault options we have, and they're in my list to provide me with a viable assault unit if I need it, and a tough threat that my opponents can't afford to ignore.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 17:04

Just a thought: nothing is a Tax, if you know how to play them
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 17:39

@Cerve wrote:
Just a thought: nothing is a Tax, if you know how to play them

If it's a bad, unwanted and/or unnecessary unit, then it's a tax however you play it.
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solar shock
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 17:47

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:


It's not a 50pt tax though, it's 50 for the wracks, then 65 for the venom (ok, useful, but if I drop one of my existing venoms then I'm also dropping a blaster) and then, realistically, around 100 for the haemonculus. so at least 215 pts, which is more than i spend on the grots in the first place.

Thing is, yes the grots are inferior to coven ones (in particular grotesquerie ones) but they're still better than any other assault options we have, and they're in my list to provide me with a viable assault unit if I need it, and a tough threat that my opponents can't afford to ignore.

Then can i suggest clawed fiends? Smile 3 clawed fiends are 90 pts. you mentioned that usually your grots aren't seeing combat till turn 4, which for a 105 min point unit seems a waste, they dont provide any shooting. so for 90 points you can take some 3W T5 clawed fiends that can move 12 inch and through cover, they dont have PfP, but by the sounds of it your not running an IC with them anyway.

the fiends seem like they would be better able to keep up with your army while being almost identical in stats. they dont have ID on 6s, but you can add in some rending with a flock or two. Proxy the grots as fiends potentially and give it a test Smile
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 20:07

@The Shredder wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
Just a thought: nothing is a Tax, if you know how to play them

If it's a bad, unwanted and/or unnecessary unit, then it's a tax however you play it.


Mmh, I disagree :-/
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 20:22

This has been a good discussion so far! Lots of fors and againsts.

My situation in this particular case is my huskblade archon plays this game called "how many sergeants can I kill before i fail my 2+ save". But I'm looking for a majority strength and toughness 5 because the.wyches just don't cut it.
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solar shock
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 20:25

What would happen if you put clawed fiends with your archon and DS'd him? i suppose the beasts can still move 12 right? then you could just slingshot into combats with characters you know your huskblade will tear up and jobs a good'en. majority T5, great for getting into CC. although thinking bout it slythh could be just as useful. T5, can shoot and charge, shoot to kill off the lowly peasants, then let the archon dice some chars with the husk blade.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 21:41

I opened a similar threat some time ago comparing the two units, cannot link because writing on smartphone now.

I strongly suggest to everyone to write two lists: one with grotesques and one with sslyth (I run 4 + Lhamaean)


I did this on different point limits and the additional points I can spend when selecting the court is always worth it imo. I feel the overall list is just more solid.

From gaming experience I would say the sslyth are decent. Not as brutal as grots in cc, but also very serious. Interestingly I tend to be more patient with the sslyth and focus more on objectitves, whereas with Grots I always feel urged to boost them up to the enemy asap because I feel they need to be in cc to fulfill their purpose.

To summarize I count my opinion as pro sslyth in a regular codex list.

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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 22:09

In the end, it's nice to have the choice between these two units Smile

About the Coven detachment haemie tax: I would also prefer to be forced to use only 1 haemie instead of two, but still the coven haemies gives nice bonuses to DE units (fearless, fear, freakish spectacle, zealot, master of pain) without losing fleet. It's a shame it doesnt have any good ranged weapon to use, I miss the old S4 liquifier gun.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 22:34

@Mononcule wrote:
In the end, it's nice to have the choice between these two units Smile

About the Coven detachment haemie tax: I would also prefer to be forced to use only 1 haemie instead of two, but still the coven haemies gives nice bonuses to DE units (fearless, fear, freakish spectacle, zealot, master of pain) without losing fleet.

The problem for me is that none of my regular units can make any use of those bonuses. Most of them can't even have a character join them because they're in venoms. Neutral

@Mononcule wrote:
It's a shame it doesnt have any good ranged weapon to use, I miss the old S4 liquifier gun.

Agreed. The Liquifier gun did not need to be nerfed at all, let alone twice.

I'm also really sad at how absolutely abysmal the Hexrifle is. Could they not have just made it ID all the time? Or given it Fleshbane or Shred? Really anything to make it less crap. Crying or Very sad
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nexs
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 22:56

So the grotesquerie is 1 Haemonculus and 2 units of beefed up grots?
It sounds great in theory, but I don't like the haemonculus as a hq choice, he's useless in combat (which, the units in the coven book are combat orientated).

The consensus is that coven suppliment grots are boss, codex grots are alright, but codex sslyth are good multipurpose unit?
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solar shock
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 23:25

mmm but the coven haemy is a buff monster! cheap WWP caddy, hes not meant to be killin', just chillin' enjoyin' the death and mayhem his abominations are unleashin'! i see the haemy as more a psycher who dont need to roll Very Happy

Slythh much more multipurpose Smile just trying to work out a cool conversion for em now. as i dislike the current model.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 23:49

You dislike the sslyth model? I reckon it's mean as! I love the model!

Also, I don't have the coven supp... so i don't know exactly what I'm dealing with Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Tue Mar 03 2015, 07:35

Interestingly I have the opposite problem, the reason I don't field the Grotesquery is it only comes with one haemonculus and I need two which forces me to take the detachment. I see the second grotesque unit of the grotesquery to be a tax instead. I also find the latest experiment table somewhat deceiving, at least for my current list.

Spoiler:
 

Why? Well fleet, only benefits the unit if all the models have fleet, and I have two units with haemonculus and there is only one sump (so that's a dud for me). Shred, well poison gives me re-rolls to wound against anything T4 or less already (so another dud). Rage, my gortesque units are large and like to multicharge (so this will rarely see use). So that's half the rolls that are not great for me. Though for smaller units of grotesques that run without characters the chart is awesome I have to say.

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solar shock
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Tue Mar 03 2015, 07:53

@Mushkilla wrote:
Interestingly I have the opposite problem, the reason I don't field the Grotesquery is it only comes with one haemonculus and I need two which forces me to take the detachment. I see the second grotesque unit of the grotesquery to be a tax instead. I also find the latest experiment table somewhat deceiving, at least for my current list.


Why? Well fleet, only benefits the unit if all the models have fleet, and I have two units with haemonculus and there is only one sump (so that's a dud for me). Shred, well poison gives me re-rolls to wound against anything T4 or less already (so another dud). Rage, my gortesque units are large and like to multicharge (so this will rarely see use). So that's half the rolls that are not great for me. Though for smaller units of grotesques that run without characters the chart is awesome I have to say.

Interesting Mush, some very good points about shred and rage. I had initially intended to run the grotesquery simply because I felt the need to add a second haemy was worth it due to the buffs. I plan on running them around the 5model mark, so I think i'll have to try both ways and see how it goes. Only problem I see is that running them characterless means I need to get them fearless ASAP. Perhaps Urien in this case would be a good choice, for Father of Pain.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Tue Mar 03 2015, 10:17

@Mushkilla wrote:

Why? Well fleet, only benefits the unit if all the models have fleet, and I have two units with haemonculus and there is only one sump (so that's a dud for me). Shred, well poison gives me re-rolls to wound against anything T4 or less already (so another dud). Rage, my gortesque units are large and like to multicharge (so this will rarely see use). So that's half the rolls that are not great for me. Though for smaller units of grotesques that run without characters the chart is awesome I have to say.

With regard to Shred, I find it very useful. I see a lot of bikes and MCs, and rerolls to-wound against such enemies really come in handy.

Just a shame that I never roll anything besides Fleet...
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Lord Mal
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Tue Mar 03 2015, 20:34

I posted this in the "Theme around a unit" thread, but it's relevant to this topic, so I figured I'd post part of it here.

Something to think about for the Sslyth, is that if you want to have more than one unit of them, you have to pay an "Archon Tax" similar to the Haemy tax for a Grotesquerie. The difference is that they remain fleet (you have to take sump on a Haemy for this with Grots), and they can each have a Blaster. They also have more flexibility since you can potentially drop 1 Sslyth if you need something specific for one or all of the units. If you're constantly trying to dig people out of ruins, possibly a Medusa trade out for a Sslyth in one or multiple units, or taking 3 Sslyth with a Lhamean for leadership if they keep killing the archons. It's a very cheap way to improve their leadership, which Grots can't do without an extra Haemy.

In fact, you could take 3 Sslyth and 2 Lhameans in a venom, and then take each archon in their own venom. That gives you 7 venoms before getting troops or FA. This is all obviously for higher point lists, probably 1850 and above, as it takes up a lot of pts, but you still have enough for some FA and Venom Troops to fill out the list.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Tue Mar 03 2015, 21:37

While venoms are great, they're useless if you face one of the many armies that have tank transports for everything, in that case you want lance raiders.. In my opinion, venoms are best taken as troops transports so they can be either poison miniguns or ObjSec objective takers/snatchers.

In this particular case, the desire is to field the (however unreliable) combat archon. The decision is based on "who is the best bodyguard for a combat archon".

I find it interesting on what people consider the "tax". one considers the haemy tax, while anothe rconsiders the second grots unit tax.
I'm a somewhat fluffy listbuilder, so I like the huskblade even though it's rubbish until you get a few soultrap kills under your belt. I'm just looking for the best escort to dump in a raider and boost into combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Tue Mar 03 2015, 23:13

@Lord Mal wrote:
Something to think about for the Sslyth, is that if you want to have more than one unit of them, you have to pay an "Archon Tax" similar to the Haemy tax for a Grotesquerie.

Why?

Just take 2 Courts of the Archon. tongue
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Wed Mar 04 2015, 00:48

That would work if you had no desire to run an archon. The other option is to spread the many units of troops you (arguably) should have across 2 detatchments if you want more courts but still keep your haemies/succubi
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Wed Mar 04 2015, 14:06

I just can't bring myself to take just courts with no Archons, I can see where an Archon would just send minions to a raid...but still, it just doesn't seem right to not have an HQ other than ones in a court. So to me personally, I have to pay for an archon if I'm running courts.

While thematically, I keep wanting to take them as body guards, they might actually be better off by themselves in a Raider with Splinter Wracks as their own unit, and instead have grots with whatever characters if you have any.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Wed Mar 04 2015, 14:17

@Lord Mal wrote:
I just can't bring myself to take just courts with no Archons

I can. Very Happy

In fact, my Courts have been archon-less for some time. My Haemonculi had them fed to their Pain Engines, in an effort to get them to respond to pain again. Despite it being ultimately unsuccessful, all involved agreed that it was still the best possible use for Archons.

Incidentally, the same fate awaits any Succubi who forget to bring a Glaive to the battle.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Wed Mar 04 2015, 14:33

@Lord Mal - I don't either, but then I actually think the Archon has a lot to offer, which some people don't.

What I would say though is that I would quite happily bring 1 Archon 2 courts. One would accompany the archon and would be 4 medusae, the other would be 9 sslyth and the archon would hop over to this unit asap

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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Wed Mar 04 2015, 15:17

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

What I would say though is that I would quite happily bring 1 Archon 2 courts. One would accompany the archon and would be 4 medusae, the other would be 9 sslyth and the archon would hop over to this unit asap

I love the idea of an Archon jumping from one Raider to another, mid-flight. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Wed Mar 04 2015, 15:29

@The Shredder wrote:
I love the idea of an Archon jumping from one Raider to another, mid-flight. Laughing

Brilliant! I was thinking more disembark to join a sslyth unit about to charge something, but your idea is definitely more cinematic!

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