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nexs
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PostSubject: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Sun Mar 01 2015, 23:55

Hi Everyone.
I'm curious as to other folks' thoughts on the on-field use of sslyth vs grotesques.

There's 10 points difference between the models, with a few differences and I'm not sure which would potentially be more useful as an Archon combat troupe.

The Sslyth have the same WS, S and T. One less wound and no poison combat weapon. Also they have not got the Rampage rule.
Grotesques have +1W, -1 save, poison 4+ combat and rampage, but don't have ranged attacks. Also, you can fit less of them in a raider. Each model loss is a considerable loss in efficiency.

Does the cost reduction + not bulky/shardcarbine equal good value for losing a wound and rampage with poison cc attacks?

What are your thoughts?

P.S. Let's not forget that the Sslyth model is far superior to the Grotesque in it's awesomeness value.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 01:41

I'd say that grots are superiors as an assault unit. But Sslyth are still good in assault, are less scared of ID weapons, can shoot and be mixed with other units from the court (for Ld or S4 flamers for example). I love to use a wwp with sslyth in a spliter racks raider as they can shoot the turn they arrive.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 02:16

That's another advantage I'd forgotten about, the splinter racks!
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 02:35

Personally I like grotesques better.  Assuming you brought Covens Grots (and why wouldn't you?) they become Fearless almost instantly, are fairly easy to get into CC, and perform reliably well once there. Sslyth can shoot, it's true, but there are better, cheaper options for shooting.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 03:01

@jimsolo
Good point. The overwatch is probably not reliable enough to put any worth into.
As far as the shooting goes, the guns gives you the option to take on some arguably fiercer units due to the fact that any number of assault 3 poisonguns could thin out a unit before hitting them in combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 04:37

I ran the numbers and slyth are better point for point than warriors except in rapid fire range for shooting, they beat them in every other fiend if you add a lhamean or a medusae

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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 04:48

Grimcrimm wrote:
I ran the numbers and slyth are better point for point than warriors except in rapid fire range for shooting, they beat them in every other fiend if you add a lhamean or a medusae
I wasn't comparing Sslyth to warriors at all..
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 06:44

Its worth pointing out Sslyth have fleet too.

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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 08:51

Does fleet only work if all models in the unit have it?
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 08:58

Yes.

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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 09:07

Well that's a decent consideration.
Though, wouldn't a raiders manoeuvrability take care of that?
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 09:30

For the initial charge yes, but as the game goes on it becomes more relevant. I don't think I've had a failed grot charge yet, but having fleet could have opened up some multi charges or had me try charges that I didn't bother with.

Overall I still think I like grots more, but slyth are something I think should be looked into.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 15:15

Codex? Sslyth.

Coven? Grotesques.

Easy
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 15:25

It's interesting that Sslyths aren't bulky.

Has anyone used a large unit of them?
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 15:31

Cerve wrote:
Codex? Sslyth.

Coven? Grotesques.

Easy

This really doesn't mean much without any explanation of why you consider that to be the case to back it up.

Regarding the comment about why you would take grotesques from the coven book - the answer is simple, don't want to have to pay the tax of buying two HQ's from the coven book, and a second unit of grotesques (or pay the not insignificant price for a grotesquerie) to meet the minimum requirements.

This is, to my mind, one of those impossible comparisons to make, because you're trying to compare a unit that operates in two phases of your turn with one that only works in a single phase. In pure assault terms, then the grotesques I think are clearly the better performer, with better combat weapon options, more resilience in terms of FNP, numbers of wounds etc. The Sslyth however balance that out considerably by their infinitely better ranged performance.

I know which one I'd rather take against grey knights for example, and it wouldn't be the guys who pay for 3W on their profile!

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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 15:33

The Shredder wrote:
It's interesting that Sslyths aren't bulky.

Has anyone used a large unit of them?


Depend what you mean of "large". 5, me.

And Fleet is why I prefer Sslyth than Grotesques in the Codex. There's a lot of game where I fail a Charge with theme, and without Fleet, Grots are risky for charging in cover.
And they cannot shoot, so one failed charge with theme will get a lot of time at the enemy, 'cause they are not a threat for him.

Timing is essential for our game, and if we cannot get a lot of threats at the enemy, we can't win.

Imho Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 15:41

The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Cerve wrote:
Codex? Sslyth.

Coven? Grotesques.

Easy

This really doesn't mean much without any explanation of why you consider that to be the case to back it up.

Regarding the comment about why you would take grotesques from the coven book - the answer is simple, don't want to have to pay the tax of buying two HQ's from the coven book, and a second unit of grotesques (or pay the not insignificant price for a grotesquerie) to meet the minimum requirements.

This is, to my mind, one of those impossible comparisons to make, because you're trying to compare a unit that operates in two phases of your turn with one that only works in a single phase. In pure assault terms, then the grotesques I think are clearly the better performer, with better combat weapon options, more resilience in terms of FNP, numbers of wounds etc. The Sslyth however balance that out considerably by their infinitely better ranged performance.

I know which one I'd rather take against grey knights for example, and it wouldn't be the guys who pay for 3W on their profile!



Sorry, Fleet. That's all.

In Coven, Grotesques get A LOT of bonus by the Pain, so they become literally a different unit. They get Fearless at T2, and that is AMAZING. And the other buffs works well with this guys.

...but in Codex...

FnP6+? I have 5+
Fnp5+? I have already fnp5+
Furious Charge? with LD 4, I don't think FC is what I need..
Fearless? Well, that's cool, but on Turn5....there's already one survivor here?

Why i need to spent 35 points for a model who:
-Don't shoot;
-Charge bad (no fleet, no reroll);
-Isn't Fearless (and LD4-5, wow. They need a Character, for the "cheaper cost of...200-250 points in a Raider? Really? No, that's horribile).

Sslyth charge better. Shoot better. They have S5. Ts5+ AND Fnp5+.
AAAND...if you need Istand Death on 6+, you can get even some Lhaemeans, witch are great (and they have LD9, no expensive Charachter needed).




That's why Sslyth are better in the Codex, and Grotesques are way good in the Coven.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 15:47

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Regarding the comment about why you would take grotesques from the coven book - the answer is simple, don't want to have to pay the tax of buying two HQ's from the coven book, and a second unit of grotesques (or pay the not insignificant price for a grotesquerie) to meet the minimum requirements.

Yeah, this is one of the reasons I struggle with grotesques.

I don't like grotesques from the DE book (the pfp table is basically worthless to them), but trying to squeeze in 2 units of them is a massive pain.

Incidentally, the mandatory 2 HQ thing from covens is what makes me really despise that detachment (along with the fact that Wracks aren't troops, so I can't even take a coven CAD). If it was just 2 elites, then I'd at least have the option of taking a cheap Wrack squad to accompany my grotesques. But, I find that our HQs are big enough point-sinks as it is, without needing to take 2 of them.


Anyway, with regard to Sslyths, does anyone take them with a character in a similar manner to the Succubus + Grotesques unit? If so, which character do you take with them and how do you outfit them (do you go for ranged, melee or a bit of both)?
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 15:55

I agree its a hard to make this comparison. As there are quite a few factors.

does it exclusively have to be an archons retinue? Are they definitely in a raider? Because if you run the grotesques from the coven book, they get a significantly buffed PfP, they will have IWND turn 3 if they dont already have it from warlord trait, significantly increasing survivability. also if you go the grotesquirie you will get some pretty beasty buffs from the offset. But as i said it depends on your intended use. If you are only going to be playing the codex then they aren't nearly as awesome.

If you go slythh then in a raider DSing as a gunboat, unload a huge volley of poison turn they arrive, then next turn repeat and add a nasty charge. If you went grots you'd not need the raider as you can just WWP them in. I recommend reading a couple of Mush's batreps, hes playing a grot heavy, i mean grotcentric list that is doing pretty damn well, but the playstyle is completely different and something you could definitely not achieve with slythh.

I think both have real merits (hence why im running a grotesquerie - or soon will be, thanks Mush, your fault - and some slythh in a venom\raider). Whats the rest of your intended list?
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 15:56

The Shredder wrote:
The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Regarding the comment about why you would take grotesques from the coven book - the answer is simple, don't want to have to pay the tax of buying two HQ's from the coven book, and a second unit of grotesques (or pay the not insignificant price for a grotesquerie) to meet the minimum requirements.

Yeah, this is one of the reasons I struggle with grotesques.

I don't like grotesques from the DE book (the pfp table is basically worthless to them), but trying to squeeze in 2 units of them is a massive pain.

Incidentally, the mandatory 2 HQ thing from covens is what makes me really despise that detachment (along with the fact that Wracks aren't troops, so I can't even take a coven CAD). If it was just 2 elites, then I'd at least have the option of taking a cheap Wrack squad to accompany my grotesques. But, I find that our HQs are big enough point-sinks as it is, without needing to take 2 of them.


Anyway, with regard to Sslyths, does anyone take them with a character in a similar manner to the Succubus + Grotesques unit? If so, which character do you take with them and how do you outfit them (do you go for ranged, melee or a bit of both)?


The second Elite can be 5 Wracks: 50 points, nice objective unit/Orbital unit.
The second Haemonculs can get Sump (fleet) and boost another DE unit. Even get a WebwayPortal maybe a second?).

That's not a great Tax, just write the list thinking it Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 16:01

Cerve wrote:

The second Elite can be 5 Wracks: 50 points, nice objective unit/Orbital unit.

As I said, the second Elite doesn't bother me.

Cerve wrote:

The second Haemonculs can get Sump (fleet) and boost another DE unit. Even get a WebwayPortal maybe a second?).

That's not a great Tax, just write the list thinking it Smile

It is a tax because it's 80-115pts that has no value or purpose in my list, other than being a requirement to access the grotesques.

I'm pretty sure that's the definition of a unit-tax. Neutral

It's also not something I can just build around, because taking superfluous HQs goes against my entire design philosophy (even when they're not as crap as ours).
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 16:17

I agree completely with The Shredder, the second Haemonculus is a definite waste of points, for which I can get anything from an extra venom to a unit of scourges or a semi-kitted reaver squad, depending on equipment.

I have to balance that against the benefits that taking grotesques from the coven book bring (and just for the record, I do have an issue with spending a further 50pts minimum on a static unit of wracks that certainly won't last the game out against my opponents. As a bare minimum I'd need that wrack unit to bring a venom, and probably an ossefactor too, to consider taking them. My existing grot unit rarely charges before turn 4, and whilst I agree that the coven PfP table benefits them much more, I can't justify taking anything else out of my list to fit in those extra units without changing my whole strategy significantly, hence my basic list brings grots from the codex, and I just cope with the not so effective PfP.

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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 16:38

With regard to the Wracks, I'd probably do the same and take them in a Venom/Raider with Ossefactor.

I don't mind too much because it's very similar to the Warrior squads I'd be fielding anyway. And, I'm sure I could do *something* productive with them.

Still not ideal, obviously, but infinitely preferable to the extra Haemonculus.

Honestly though, this is why I only take coven formations (never their detachment). They're just so much more focussed, on top of having extra bonuses.
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 16:39

The Shredder wrote:
Cerve wrote:

The second Elite can be 5 Wracks: 50 points, nice objective unit/Orbital unit.

As I said, the second Elite doesn't bother me.

Cerve wrote:

The second Haemonculs can get Sump (fleet) and boost another DE unit. Even get a WebwayPortal maybe a second?).

That's not a great Tax, just write the list thinking it Smile

It is a tax because it's 80-115pts that has no value or purpose in my list, other than being a requirement to access the grotesques.

I'm pretty sure that's the definition of a unit-tax. Neutral

It's also not something I can just build around, because taking superfluous HQs goes against my entire design philosophy (even when they're not as crap as ours).

Some Sslyth, then
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PostSubject: Re: Sslyth vs. Grotesque   Mon Mar 02 2015, 16:43

The second haemy is only a tax if its a tax within your lists, many lists i build want two, hence its not a tax Smile But as a side note, shredder i know you personally prefer a fluffy list, so i can understand not fancying two.

Burning, id say having a problem with taking 50pts and then stating you'd just deal with the inferior grots is a little contrary, not an attack on you, but id say drop them then. If you cant waste 50 points on another unit, then you certainly cant take something as sub-optimal as codex grots Wink Dont take that personally, but i think you'd be better off with some other units, or find somewhere to drop points and take the venom wracks and the supped up grots Smile Going half way seems like a bad idea. As you said you dont want to change the whole theme, so can i ask what role the grots play in your lists? Smile
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